New Zealand as World Champions need to change themselves

[smartcooky]

For some reason this thread reminds me of the Battle for Pelennor Fields...

And who are you casting as Sauron? Not me I hope!!

 

[Teh Mite]

Nah, Witch-king of Angmar!

 

[smartcooky]

Nah, Witch-king of Angmar!

Nope... can't be me. I don't own a black horse!

 

[Me 1]

Nope... can't be me. I don't own a black horse!

Do you happen to own a flying reptile monster dragon thing(don't know their name)?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Fell-beast


Cookie can be Tom Bombadil

 

[lucky number 7]

Shotgun Faramir! ...**** yeah re entering my LOTR geek mindframe.

 

[Seaton]

Well, at this point ranger is Minas Tirith (sp) battling Melhor (The Witch King), whilst the arriving New Zealanders make up the army of Rohan.
They combine, with smatcooky being Theoden (age), Invictus being Merry (size), Tricia being Eowyn (gender) domcdazzle being Eomer (hairstyle) and nicknz being yon person whom blows the horn. (He likes to blow horny things.)


The Islanders then come in (as the Haradim/ oliphants), which offer as a side 'battle' to the main one. Darwin_23 and CA Iversen come in leading the undead army, since there is one spare, they get to choose which of the heroes (a pointy eared,long living not into women elf - a short, drunk, ginger man - and your fairly average guy who has trouble choosing his women and runs away from his troubles).

Everyone else gets to be the elves, who sit happily away from the battle raging on pointing and laughing at the pointless efforts of men and their deformed counerparts (the aussies) slugging it out.

My apologies to the once made " TRF Fellowship thread"

 

[Thingimubob]

Well this thread took an interesting turn :lol: been a while since my LOTR nerd self made an appearance

On a serious note - do hate how Wales seem to get lumped in as someone who's trying to stop the development of PI rugby... <_< never heard of the regions trying to stop people playing for their country! Cardiff Blues prop Tau'fao Filise started for Tonga a few times in this WC, and played in the one in 2007 too I think, hasn't lost his contract/was hindered in any way... same for Molitika (a stalwart of the Blues back row for a hell of a long time now!) when he was called up for Tonga in 2007.

 

[Melhor Time]

Smartcooky,

Your post is a good one but you didn´t answer what it is exactly that you want. What matters most to you?

The offers have not been taken up. I know that the Crusaders tried to recruit a couple of Argentine players playing in France, and they approached them during the world cup, but the problem is, we simply cannot match the money being offered in France.

The Blues were close to signing Juan Martín Hernández in 2009 for the 2010 season. He went to the Sharks (Durban) instead. He was on record saying he didn´t go there for the money. He was one of the biggest earners in France. Easily Stade Français´s highest paid player at the time. He wanted to play for the Blues and for the Sharks. Santiago Fernández was targetted by the Western Force and the Blues one year latter but went for Montpellier as they offered him a 2 year deal where as the Super Rugby offers were for one season (six months). Hernández took the offer to play in South Africa and immediately got a long term offer from Racing Metro to return to France. He got badly injured which ended his time there half way through the contract so he could have back surgery. Racing Metro signed him while he was injured and saw that he was properly rehabilitated. A club offering a long term deal is going to be better than one offering a short term one.

This is something your not acknowledging. Playing one season is like being a Medical Joker for a French team. If a player has two offers with one being a full time contract and the other being a short term deal he´ll take the contract just like these players did. Marcos Ayerza is another. Just signed on to stay at Leicester until 2015. He´s been the best loosehead in England for quite some time.

Who were the Crusaders trying to sign?

The Argentina team that faced New Zealand in the World Cup was:

15 Martín Rodríguez Gurruchaga (Stade Français, France)
14 Gonzalo Camacho (Exeter Chiefs, England)
13 Marcelo Bosch (Biarritz, France)
12 Felipe Contepomi (Stade Français, France)
11 Horacio Agulla (Leicester Tigers, England)
10 Santiago Fernández (Montpellier, France)
9 Nicolás Vergallo (Toulouse, France)
8 Leo Senatore (GER Rosario) *
7 Juan Leguizamón (Lyon OU, France)
6 Julio Farias (Tucuman) *
5 Patricio Albacete (Toulouse, France)
4 Manuel Carizza (Biarritz, France)
3 Juan Figallo (Montpellier, France)
2 Mario Ledesma, (Clermont, France) - retired
1 Rodrigo Roncero (Stade Français, France)

* Leo Senatore is now at Toulon - who offered him a contract for the full season and has told him that he´ll be signed on a permanent contract with the club if he does well this season. He said on twitter that Toulon were talking to him weeks before he was signed. He never mentioned any Super Rugby team contacting him.

* Julio Farias has just undergone surgery and is considering offers to play in the Aviva Premiership and the Top 14.

James Haskell at the Highlanders is a different stroy as he already has guarantees to play elsewhere afterwards.

Also, I renew my assertion that European Club Rugby routinely prevents Pacific Island players from playing for their countries, both in regular internationals AND the Rugby World Cup... READ THIS MELHOR TIME, don't just brush it off, or ignore it because it doesn't fit in with the view you have of Top 14 that you see when you look through your Rose tinted spectacles.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/5835961/Rich-Europe-squeezing-life-out-of-Pacific-rugby

I never disagreed with this. I have talked of examples including a Samoan and a USA player who both missed the World Cup. Something terrible, disgraceful. I never condoned it at all. I said clubs aren´t perfect but they are the best we have. While some have been unable to play and others have had consequences such as pro contract loses this is not the norm. Its very rare

Argentine backrower Genaro Fessia, lost his contract with London Wasps because he played at the World Cup. Wasps had signed him and played him twice before he got a late call up and then Wasps didn´t want him anymore. Sad story. I feel for Genaro. However its a small loss compared to the gain of many other players frmo the same country. Its the same when considering Manoa (USA).

I can tell you that New Zealand Rugby Clubs, Provincial Unions, and Super Rugby franchises have;

► NEVER prevented any player from playing for their country.
► NEVER offered inducements to players not to play for their country.
► NEVER contracted a player in such a way that they had to give up the right to play for their country.
► NEVER terminated the contract of a player for playing for their country.
Can you truthfully say the same for Top14 and Premiership teams?

I´ve covered this in a previous post. Tests are at times which work for New Zealand teams. If there were England vs New Zealand during the Super Rugby season it would be unlikely to be an elite, or strong, All Blacks side. This is what happened to Samoa in 2008 vs New Zealand as the match was played at the wrong time.

If the NZRU were to put in place the things you want; unlimited foreign involvement in Super Rugby Franchises and unrestricted selection of All Blacks who play outside New Zealand, it would utterly destroy the game in New Zealand. Our Premier domestic competitions would be reduced to the level of the Meads and Lochore Cups... amateur part-timers.

A possibility. Not the only one though. In France the level of the Top14 has improved greatly and has helped French test players who get regular game time against world class imports. France, coincidently or not, is the only team to have made the Semi Finals of every World Cup in the Professional era.

My conclusion is that you are scared of the posssibility and this drives you to suggest that the chance of it happenning is far more likely than it perhaps is.

In reality you are asking the NZRU to open up to foreign players, while the competitions in Europe are actually going the other way; moving to restrict foreign involvement

[TEXTAREA]The FFR requires Top 14 clubs to limit the number of foreign players on their books. Squads are required to contain at least 40 per cent of players that have been registered with the FFR for at least five years before turning 21, or have spent three seasons in an FFR-approved training centre if they are currently under 21. This is from having no restrictions at all, and I expect them to tighten this up even further as time goes on.[/TEXTAREA]

Quite misleading. They are restricting but not blocking. 40% French players is a lot different than having space for two foreigners.

You are also asking the NZRU to pick players who play in Europe and overseas, yet England are going the other way on that...

[TEXTAREA]The Rugby Football Union has written to players to say England intend to only select players who play for domestic clubs in England following the 2011 World Cup.[/TEXTAREA]

True, but its questionable whether or not this will even happen. If it were to happen I´d think of it as being wrong. A player, like Wilkinson, playing in Toulon has the right to play there and has actually improved greatly. A very similar example being Palmer at Stade Français. Both are back in the English side thanks to their form while playing in France. James Hook debuted yesterday for Perpignan vs Toulouse. Good performance and actually at flyhalf and not out of position. I think Wales will be extremely advantaged from him playing there.

 

[Tricia McMillan]

Hey Sauron!

Your mother had cataracts!

 

[smartcooky]

On a serious note - do hate how Wales seem to get lumped in as someone who's trying to stop the development of PI rugby... <_< never heard of the regions trying to stop people playing for their country! Cardiff Blues prop Tau'fao Filise started for Tonga a few times in this WC, and played in the one in 2007 too I think, hasn't lost his contract/was hindered in any way... same for Molitika (a stalwart of the Blues back row for a hell of a long time now!) when he was called up for Tonga in 2007.

Nor have I, and I WAS careful to mention only the Premiership and the Top14 in that regard.

Melhor

Who were the Crusaders trying to sign?

I'm not sure who the players were, but I think they weren't in the side that played the All Blacks in the quarter-final.

Tests are at times which work for New Zealand teams. If there were England vs New Zealand during the Super Rugby season it would be unlikely to be an elite, or strong, All Blacks side.

In that case, we'll see next year, because the June internationals for 2012 will be during the Super Rugby season (between Rounds 15 and 16). I am sure that the All Blacks will be at full strength with all players released to play, including James Haskell to play for England if they want him.

Now can you guarantee that players like Nick Evans and Carl Hayman would be released to be available whenever the All Black selectors wanted them. I doubt it, and I do not want to have the NZRU is a position of having to go to European clubs cap in hand and begging for the use of their players, and worse yet, having to PAY for the right. England has enough difficulty living with the highly restrictive Long Form and Elite Players agreements with the PRL, and frankly I don't want the NZRU to have a bar of being in such agreements. I want ALL eligible NZ players to be available to the NZ coaches and selectors at all times and at THEIR behest, not that of the PRL and LNR.

My conclusion is that you are scared of the possibility and this drives you to suggest that the chance of it happening is far more likely than it perhaps is.

You consider the possibility remote, I do not, but even if it is remote, the consequences for NZ Rugby are too great to be risked. Look at England Wendyball; absolutely packed full of foreign players... There have been times when top teams like Chelsea and Arsenal have taken the field without a single Englishman in the run on side. Yes, it may enhance the competition, but is it really the "English" Premier League...really? And when was the last time England won the Football World Cup?

 

[Melhor Time]

Smartcooky,

Let me know what positions, in your opinion, the Crusaders needed filling or, in other words, which positions could have done with a Puma or two.

The Pumas had the following players off contract:

- backrowers Alejandro Campos (left Agen) and Genaro Fessia (who got a rough job from London Wasps), Leo Senatore and Julio Farias

- Secondrower Mariano Galarza

- Scrumhalf Alfredo Lalanne (now with London Scottish in Englands Second division)

- wing Agustin Gosio (now with London Scottish) and Juan Imhoff (now with Racing Metro)

I see where you are coming from in regards to player control. I think you make a very good argument and sure picking a player like Nick Evans and demand his avaliability is not the easiest thing to do. Teams do have to bend and work together with clubs. Its not the ideal situation but it is far better than trying to field a competitive team without professional players. Argentina show this clearly. Take their 2008 loss to Italy and Scotland with players missing due to the Top 14 season going latter after the World Cup from the previous year. The UAR could have demanded the release of all the players but opted to to for the simple reason that the players had been fighting all season to reach the semi finals and final and deserevd to play for their respective clubs. Patricio Albacete won the Top 14 final in a match against Pumas teammates like Martin Scelzo and Mario Ledesma. Players such as Rodrigo Roncero, Juan Martín Hernández and Rimas Alvarez also missed out. Its not that the players weren´t released, its that Argentina didn´t request them -this is on record. Now, sure, had the UAR had the control over all players then there would be no issues and I doubt either Italy or Scotland would have defeated Los Pumas. But in 2008 it was not in a great economic state and it is not likely that the UAR will have its top players playing in what will be two Argentine Super Rugby teams before the 2015 World Cup.

I also wonder if in five years time it will be feasible for the status quo to remain. There´ve already been hugely rule bending situations like Luke McAlister back in the All Blacks after returning from the Sale Sharks. He´d played zero games in New Zealand but made the national team. 2011 RWC players leaving for Japan and England like Ma´a Nonu, Mils Muliaina and Stephen Donald. They were under contract but after the RWC were off into the sunset which goes against having the All Blacks made up of domsetic based players as it was puiblic knowledge that they´s be leaving. Since there is an increasing number of players leaving on short term (Carter to Perpignan, etc) deals I am certainly dubious about the state of the union. I wonder if in five years things will continue as they are now.

The English Premier League is not something I can comment on so well as I simply hate soccer so much that I don´t follow it at all. If the league is overrun by imports and England has a poor team then there is a problem. But in rugby neither England nor France are worse off from the imports. Maybe one could argue that Japan´s league is getting better faster than that of the national team itself. In the pro era both England and France have made the RWC Final twice as have Australia while New Zealand and South Africa have made the final once each. Wales were fourth this year, all four teams have a notable list of imported players and there is no evidence that the players are impacting negatively on the national side.

France´s current weakness may well be flyhalf. I rate François Trinh-Duc and think Morgan Parra did a fine job in the position. Jean-Marc Doussain is another scrumhalf who, in time, will likely be playing flyhalf. Incredible to think his debut was the World Cup Final! This weekend there were four Top 14 matches as three were postponed. Of the six teams on show only two had French flyhalves starting with Pierre Bernard (Castres) and David Skrela (Clermont). There were two Pumas flyhalves starting (Hernández and Contepomi) and James Hook. Former French flyhalf, Lionel Beauxis was on the bench with Luke McAlister starting. A guy considered better than Skrela, Jonathan Wisneski was on the bench too. France has no flyhalf crisis it just, right now, doesn´t have enough players of note. Beauxis, for instance, is not of international standard. I think this is a useful excercise for rugby everywhere and can certainly be applied to Super Rugby teams in all three member countries. Weaknesses in positions can be pointed out in each country. France had strong props playing this weekend with Luc Ducalcon, Nicolas Mas and Jean Baptiste Poux all playing yet there were four Argentine props playing too. These Argentine props don´t hold back French rugby at all. Australia could sure do with more props. New Zealand could do with some more wingers - the Kiwi wingers are mainly centres and fullbacks at Super Rugby level. Hence, having, lets say Juan Imhoff or Vereniki Goneva in Super Rugby would not impact on the All Blacks at all. Both are better players than a lot of New Zealnds Super Rugby wingers (as is James Paterson) and neither is on a big money European deal. For me, for instance, they´d both start for the Hurricanes and Blues. Like the above French flyhalf and prop examples neither side has All Blacks players with even Rene Ranger, who I rate, being well down the list.

 

[Darwin]

France´s current weakness may well be flyhalf. I rate François Trinh-Duc and think Morgan Parra did a fine job in the position. Jean-Marc Doussain is another scrumhalf who, in time, will likely be playing flyhalf. Incredible to think his debut was the World Cup Final! This weekend there were four Top 14 matches as three were postponed. Of the six teams on show only two had French flyhalves starting with Pierre Bernard (Castres) and David Skrela (Clermont). There were two Pumas flyhalves starting (Hernández and Contepomi) and James Hook. Former French flyhalf, Lionel Beauxis was on the bench with Luke McAlister starting. A guy considered better than Skrela, Jonathan Wisneski was on the bench too. France has no flyhalf crisis it just, right now, doesn´t have enough players of note. Beauxis, for instance, is not of international standard. I think this is a useful excercise for rugby everywhere and can certainly be applied to Super Rugby teams in all three member countries. Weaknesses in positions can be pointed out in each country. France had strong props playing this weekend with Luc Ducalcon, Nicolas Mas and Jean Baptiste Poux all playing yet there were four Argentine props playing too. These Argentine props don´t hold back French rugby at all. Australia could sure do with more props. New Zealand could do with some more wingers - the Kiwi wingers are mainly centres and fullbacks at Super Rugby level. Hence, having, lets say Juan Imhoff or Vereniki Goneva in Super Rugby would not impact on the All Blacks at all. Both are better players than a lot of New Zealnds Super Rugby wingers (as is James Paterson) and neither is on a big money European deal. For me, for instance, they´d both start for the Hurricanes and Blues. Like the above French flyhalf and prop examples neither side has All Blacks players with even Rene Ranger, who I rate, being well down the list.

:lol: Are you serious? New Zealand has an overabundance of wing talent - there are a number of wings that didn't even get Super Rugby contracts (e.g. Gillies Kaka, Bryce Heem, Buxton Popoali'i) that would get close to many international sides! The fact that New Zealand used Kahui on the wing during the RWC was entirely due to the type of wing the AB's wanted, rather than any indication that New Zealand lacks wing depth. The likes of Hosea Gear, Rene Ranger, Kade Poki, Sean Maitland, Ben Smith, Lelia Masaga et al. are all international class wings yet couldn't even make the initial 30-man AB's Rugby World Cup squad!

James Paterson is better than a lot of New Zealand Super Rugby wings? He's played Super Rugby for a couple of years for the Highlanders, and apart from a few brief moments of brilliance he has been decidedly average. He certainly wouldn't deserve a contract this season based on past form. Goneva and Imhoff would struggle to start in any NZ Super Rugby franchise. They are not obviously better than Taylor, Savea, or Leiua at the Hurricanes. They wouldn't start for the Blues: Rene Ranger and Rudi Wulf look likely starters (and are both class players), though Wulf could be paired with Sherwin Stowers or either Raikuna or Moala (who are both freakishly talented young players) if Ranger is used at centre. It is true that neither Ranger or Wulf are regular international players, but that is entirely due to the fact that the AB's have so many good wings, rather than any indication that they are not good players! Goneva/Imhoff may have a resonable chance of starting with the Chiefs (alongside Masaga),but again I wouldn't think they were obviously that much better than O'Donnell or Nemani. Your suggestion that New Zealand lacks wing talent points far more to your lack of knowledge on New Zealand rugby than any real lack of wing talent in New Zealand

 

[Rhyer]

Wing spot was the most overly competed placed from memory. So many class players, all New Zealand Super 15 teams could put their own back three for the international side and you wouldn't even notice it. Maybe the Highlanders being the exception but still very good with Robbie Robinson, Kade Poki and that Vainakolo guy.

 

[smartcooky]

Smartcooky,

Let me know what positions, in your opinion, the Crusaders needed filling or, in other words, which positions could have done with a Puma or two.

1. No. 8: a back up for Keiren Read now that David Hall has left. Actually a utility backrower would have been good (Fernandez-Lobbe? If only!)

2. Lock. They have signed Ross Kennedy from the Eastern Province Kings IMO instead of an Argentina player

I also wonder if in five years time it will be feasible for the status quo to remain. There´ve already been hugely rule bending situations like Luke McAlister back in the All Blacks after returning from the Sale Sharks. He´d played zero games in New Zealand but made the national team. 2011 RWC players leaving for Japan and England like Ma´a Nonu, Mils Muliaina and Stephen Donald. They were under contract but after the RWC were off into the sunset which goes against having the All Blacks made up of domsetic based players as it was puiblic knowledge that they´s be leaving. Since there is an increasing number of players leaving on short term (Carter to Perpignan, etc) deals I am certainly dubious about the state of the union. I wonder if in five years things will continue as they are now.

And look how that worked out, he was terrible. Also, he left the country in a huff when he didn't make the RWC squad. Pity he didn't stick around; at the rate our No. 10's were falling over, he probably would have got on the field ahead of Donald.


France´s current weakness may well be flyhalf. I rate François Trinh-Duc and think Morgan Parra did a fine job in the position. .[/QUOTE]

Really? IMO they had a scrum-half at 10 and a 10 at scrum half. Yachvili is a better 10 than he is a scrummie.

Melhor Time, you are I are philosophically poles apart on this.

I see Domestic rugby as an adjunct to International rugby. I see it as little more than a stage on which we see the players perform so that can pick the best ones to play the "real" rugby. Playing for your country should be the very pinnacle of your achievement as a sportsman in whatever sport you play. I am a Tasman and Crusaders supporter, and while I want them to win it would not be at the expense of the All Blacks winning.

There are others on this forum who see it the other way round. The don't give a toss if England are shite, so long as their Premiership team does well. The see international rugby as a "pest" that has to be tolerated.

The only page on the hymn sheet that you and I both sing off together is with regards to Argentina, who SHOULD have been already in the 3N/4N as long ago as 2007. The side that finished 3rd in 2007 would have been very, very competitive with Australia and New Zealand.

 

[Darwin]

Wing spot was the most overly competed placed from memory. So many class players, all New Zealand Super 15 teams could put their own back three for the international side and you wouldn't even notice it. Maybe the Highlanders being the exception but still very good with Robbie Robinson, Kade Poki and that Vainakolo guy.

The Highlanders back three last season were all international/potentially international players (Piutau, Poki, Smith) - thankfully 'that Vainakolo guy' left the year before. This seasons back three (Gear, Poki, Smith) will definitely be among the best in the entire competition.

1. No. 8: a back up for Keiren Read now that David Hall has left. Actually a utility backrower would have been good (Fernandez-Lobbe? If only!)

2. Lock. They have signed Ross Kennedy from the Eastern Province Kings IMO instead of an Argentina player

Hall wasn't covering Number 8 for the Crusaders. Though he has played at number 8 for Southland, he is primarily a hooker, and was signed by the Crusaders as a hooker. He is certainly not a number 8 at Super Rugby level (I don't think he's ever played there!). He only played 1 game for the Crusaders last year (covering hooker from the bench) so he is hardly a big loss. The Crusaders used both Wheeler and McCaw as number 8 cover when Read was out injured/rested. This season the Crusaders have signed a utility loose-forward player (to replace Poff): Luke Whitelock. Whitelock has been in the under 20's the last two seasons (captaining them this year), and was nominated for world under 20 player of the year. If he gets a chance he could well make a big impact on Super Rugby this season.

I agree Ross Kennedy is an interesting signing. I don't rate him that highly - they may have been better signing some overseas talent (assuming they are better than Kennedy) or could have picked a talented young player to develop (Dominic Bird/ Steven Luatua etc). I actually think they may have been better picking someone like Matt Luamanu or Colin Bourke (as they have plenty of lock cover already): both have immense talent (but have obvious flaws), and I believe the Crusaders environment could mold them into international class players (ala Ron Cribb/ Mose Tuiali'i).

 

[smartcooky]

Hall wasn't covering Number 8 for the Crusaders. Though he has played at number 8 for Southland, he is primarily a hooker, and was signed by the Crusaders as a hooker. He is certainly not a number 8 at Super Rugby level (I don't think he's ever played there!). He only played 1 game for the Crusaders last year (covering hooker from the bench) so he is hardly a big loss. The Crusaders used both Wheeler and McCaw as number 8 cover when Read was out injured/rested. This season the Crusaders have signed a utility loose-forward player (to replace Poff): Luke Whitelock. Whitelock has been in the under 20's the last two seasons (captaining them this year), and was nominated for world under 20 player of the year. If he gets a chance he could well make a big impact on Super Rugby this season.

From the Crusaders website. David Hall's Player profile

[TEXTAREA]Hooker David Hall will make his debut for the Crusaders in 2011 after playing his previous Super rugby for the Highlanders. He is an experienced campaigner who made his Super rugby debut in 2005. He is a good ball carrier who has also played at No8. Injury has limited his game time in recent seasons.[/TEXTAREA]

I think the Crusaders do need a proper No. 8 cover. Kieran Read has shown that it really is a specialist position in the modern game. I wouldn't like to see McCaw acting as cover for that position. He may not even be ready for the first part of the season anyway, given that he could still be recovering from foot surgery. It is supposed to be 12 weeks recovery, but that is not a given.

 

[Darwin]

From the Crusaders website. David Hall's Player profile

[TEXTAREA]Hooker David Hall will make his debut for the Crusaders in 2011 after playing his previous Super rugby for the Highlanders. He is an experienced campaigner who made his Super rugby debut in 2005. He is a good ball carrier who has also played at No8. Injury has limited his game time in recent seasons.[/TEXTAREA]

As I mentioned, Hall has played number 8 at ITM Cup level in a couple of games (as Southland were short of loose-forwards, and they had Rutledge at hooker), but Hall is not (nor ever has been) an option at number 8 at Super Rugby level.

I think the Crusaders do need a proper No. 8 cover. Kieran Read has shown that it really is a specialist position in the modern game. I wouldn't like to see McCaw acting as cover for that position. He may not even be ready for the first part of the season anyway, given that he could still be recovering from foot surgery. It is supposed to be 12 weeks recovery, but that is not a given.

Luke Whitelock's primary position is number 8, though he is capable at 6 (and to a lesser extent at 7). I'd have no problem seeing McCaw shift to 8 for the Crusaders on occasion too (if Read was injured/rested) - I think over the next few years he may well see a lot more time in the 6 or 8 jersey as age catches up with him. This would also allow the Crusaders to play Todd (one of the best opensides in the country) at 7.

 

[Melhor Time]

Melhor Time, you are I are philosophically poles apart on this.

And thats 100% fine. What I´d simply like to know is how you see Rugby World Cup´s improving. How can we have more genuine contenders, more genuine upsets, more potential Quarter Finalists - say four from each pool.

Darwin

I think you mistook what I was saying.

The All Blacks World Cup wingers were centres or fullbacks - Jane, Dagg, Williams, Kahui and Guildford.

At Super Rugby level they are not wingers. Hence, those playing wing for Kiwi Super Rugby sides are, right now, not as good as previously. Secondrow is a position I think New Zealand is lacking in. The best player has gone now too (Brad Thorn). As Smartcooky said the Crusaders have got Ross Kennedy - a journeyman. I don´t see enough New Zealand secondrowers of note to be spread about 5 teams. i.e. 4 per team = 20. Mariano Galarza is a better player than Ross Kennedy and, certainly a lot of others.

 

[nickdnz]

And thats 100% fine. What I´d simply like to know is how you see Rugby World Cup´s improving. How can we have more genuine contenders, more genuine upsets, more potential Quarter Finalists - say four from each pool.

Darwin

I think you mistook what I was saying.

The All Blacks World Cup wingers were centres or fullbacks - Jane, Dagg, Williams, Kahui and Guildford.

At Super Rugby level they are not wingers. Hence, those playing wing for Kiwi Super Rugby sides are, right now, not as good as previously. Secondrow is a position I think New Zealand is lacking in. The best player has gone now too (Brad Thorn). As Smartcooky said the Crusaders have got Ross Kennedy - a journeyman. I don´t see enough New Zealand secondrowers of note to be spread about 5 teams. i.e. 4 per team = 20. Mariano Galarza is a better player than Ross Kennedy and, certainly a lot of others.

Right. This really does emphasize how little you know.

Joe Rokocoko, Sitivini Sivivatu, Hosea Gear, Sean Maitland, Lelia Masaga, Kade Poki, Rene Ranger were all open for selection. I wasn't a fan of the choice of not taking a specialist left winger other than Zac Guildford, but fact of the matter is, I can think of no team in the world that has half as much depth in the back three as New Zealand had going into the RWC.

The fact that Henry chose no specialist wingers, and they all played brilliantly, does not indicate a lack of depth.