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New Zealand as World Champions need to change themselves

The thing that Darwin has pointed out, is absolutely true. Off the top of my head:

Nicky Little, Sereli Bobo, Lome Fa'atau, Rupeni Caucaunibuca, Isa Nacewa, Seilala Mapusua, Anthony Perinise, Anthony Perenise, Deacon Manu, Villimoni Delasau, Finau Maka, Fetu'u Vainikolo, Nilli Latu, Paul Williams, Kahn Fotuali'i etc, etc were all pretty much guarenteed Super Rugby contracts, but because they were no longer able to play for the All Blacks, they signed overseas. Melhor, what your list misses is not where people are currently playing, but where the players made their debut. So many players, once they have been developed and become great players, get signed over seas for more money, money that New Zealand can't afford to pay their own player!

The Fijian person you talk of, seems to only have an understanding of Fijian rugby that can be found on a Wikipedia squad list. If France was so good for Fiji's development, why did they get ass-raped this World Cup, with out many of their better players?

The New Zealand rugby system benefits teams like Samoa more than any other country. I've established why. A majority of players learned all their rugby in New Zealand, played New Zealand college rugby, club rugby, NPC level and sometimes higher, it's just they choose to leave for more money when they won't make the All Blacks.
 
Doesn't the NZRU have a law that players who are ineligible for the All Blacks can't play Super Rugby, unless they make themselves unavailable for their international team?
 
Super Rugby doesn't run while any international fixtures are taking place.

I think there's possibly a salary cap for non-NZ eligible players, but I could be wrong on that one.
 
Doesn't the NZRU have a law that players who are ineligible for the All Blacks can't play Super Rugby, unless they make themselves unavailable for their international team?

No. There is a certain number of forign players allowed for each team, simply because players will leave the country to earn more if players are being brought in. There are no salary caps for Super Rugby players, just that the franchises are only given a certain amount of money that they can spend, so buying big name players would come to the detriment of the rest of the team.

Basically, teams are allowed two foreign (this does not include ANY Pacific Island players) into the set up, with the idea that the two spots would help Argentinian players who wished to become part of the setup (something Melhor has overlooked).

This may interest some people regarding the topic:

New Zealand's five Super 15 rugby franchises will be able to have up to two foreign players on their roster. The New Zealand Rugby Union (NZRU) signed off the new foreign player policy at today's board meeting in Wellington, firming up an agreement they had with the players' association.
But there are limitations designed to ensure Super rugby continues to develop New Zealand players.
Under the policy, there can be no equivalent New Zealand player, no more than one foreign player in a specialist position across the New Zealand franchises, and no more than one player per position at any given franchise.
The changes are effective immediately, meaning franchises could field overseas players next year.
"We've been trying to strike a balance between the need to maintain our ability to build our player depth and develop New Zealand rugby so that we maintain a winning All Blacks environment, with our commitment to ensure Super rugby is the best international competition in the world," NZRU chief executive Steve Tew said today.
"We will monitor this very closely."
Tew was not expecting an influx of foreign players, if any, next year, rather from 2012.
"I think a couple of franchises have explored some options (for next year) but timing is clearly an issue," he said.
"We're probably really thinking 2012 before you could line up with contract commitments that guys have got around the place.
"We are hopeful that we'll get some Argentinian players playing out here, which will help them secure their players in a professional rugby environment that lines them up with the same calendar as their test matches.
"There's a bit of work to be done actually getting your head around where, particularly Argentinian players, sit on the scale of ability versus our own players."
In the past, the approval for the contracting of foreign players has been granted only where exceptional circumstances had existed, such as a significant lack of depth in a particular position within a franchise.
Pacific Island players are not treated as foreign players under this policy. The existing approach, whereby players from the Pacific Islands who are not eligible to play for New Zealand may be contracted if no equivalent New Zealand eligible player is available, remains.
Meanwhile, revenue was again a hot topic for the board.
Tew said a "substantial" number of provincial unions were forecasting losses this year and while their situations were not significantly worse, they were not improving, either.

http://www.odt.co.nz/128087/super-franchises-allowed-two-foreign-players
 
I think it might be beneficial if the NZRU, or SANZAR, or whatever governing body it may be that might have some kind of say in this, to make it somehow easier for Argentine players to play in Super Rugby, while preserving their objective to develop an environment for their national team, or any other goals the team's home union may have (such as the NZRU allowing Samoan, Fijian, and Tongan players to not count as foreign players).

How they would go about this exactly, I don't know. And perhaps their provision for two foreign players is what they mean to do, but if they do, I'm not sure if that's the best approach.
 
I applaud the European competitions because there is proof that they are making imported players better. Consequently we have better World Cups. New Zealand does not want to be overrun by imports and even the suggestion of Emerick, Trainor or Sánchez has the Kiwi´s on this thread saying not only no but no way - they need to come through the system first, to prove their weight. It is not the intention, I am sure, but it nevertheless is a form of hegemony of keeping the powerful team at the top where it is. It is making it harder for others. If you are happy with the way it is thats totally fine. Your call. If, however, like me you´d prefer to see more teams competiting at a higher level then maybe, just maybe, there is a need to look at how things operate.

Samoa World Cup squad - England and France being the main clubs for the 2011-2012 season.

Top 14

Ole Avei (Bordeaux-Begles) (1) (2)
Tií Paulo (Clermont) (2)
Census Johnson (Toulouse) (1) (2)
Daniel Leo (Bordeaux-Begles) (1)(2)
Joe Tekori (Castres) (1)
Paul Williams (Stade Français) (2)

Second Division
Manaia Salavea (Narbonne) (1)

Super Rugby
Mahonri Schwalger

Aviva Premiership
Anthony Perenise (Bath) (2)
Sakarua Taulafo (London Wasps) (1)
Maurie Fa´asavalu (Harlequins) (1)
Taiasina Tuifu´a (Newcastle)
Junior Polu (Exeter) (2)
Alesana Tuilaga (Leicester Tigers)
Tasesa Lavea (Sale Sharks) (1) (2)
Jonny Leota (Sale Sharks) (1) (2)
Eliota Fuimaono-Sapolu (Gloucester) (1)
George Pisi (London Irish) (2)
Sailosi Tagicakibau (London Irish) (1) (2)

Similar story regarding Fiji and Tonga.

Over the years I´ve had plenty of guys like this Fijian I mention tell me they agree that the way it works is to the disadvantage of the Islands and that not only do they not approve but it leaves a sour taste in their mouths. Tongans, Samoans and Fijians have all felt this way. I don´t think everyone does andam not suggesting they should. Super Rugby places for New Zealanders so the All Blacks can continue as they are. If Georgia can be a genuine tier two side then the Islanders can be genuine tier one sides too. But we (rugby) need to contribute. It comes down to a choice - All Blacks or rugby? What matters more?

There have already been alot of responses to your points and i'm agreeing with them, however I wanted to respond to the above specifically. You've stated "I applaud the European competitions because there is proof that they are making imported players better."

Players listed in (1) would not make the starting XV or even the bench in the S15 franchises. How are they better? Was it not reported that the European Clubs blackmailed Island based players into staying and avoid the RWC? How did Fiji fare at this World Cup.
Players listed in (2) are New Zealand born and in a Chicken and Egg situation, if it were not for that system they would not be playing in Europe. They all left not because they were being squeezed out. Let me repeat what's already been stated: They left for Financial Reasons.

As a New Zealand Born Samoan, just let me say - in the earlier part of the S12-14 there was that feeling that if you're not All Black eligible then it was likely to go to another player and rightly so, but that's soo far gone it's not even something people remember. The requirement for all NZ Super15 franchises to be the most successful franchise you can be with what you can pick, there are international players and yes there is a quota. Ultimately the argument goes round in circles but for me it comes down to money.

The NZRU (despite their management) have to be as tight as they can with as little financial resources as they can. You're suggesting they make massively significant changes in order to gaurantee success for the greater good of international rugby at the risk of destroying everything that historically is good about NZ rugby.
 
I know this is off the record a bit but so people know, Toeava came to NZ on a rugby scholarship as a youngster. There ARE scouts from NZ that monitor talent in Samoa, trust me I know this as fact. Im just putting that out there for people to know because I couldve sworn one of our posters posted that there are no NZ scouts in the Islands and that poster clearly doesnt know untill now of course.:)
 
I know this is off the record a bit but so people know, Toeava came to NZ on a rugby scholarship as a youngster. There ARE scouts from NZ that monitor talent in Samoa, trust me I know this as fact. Im just putting that out there for people to know because I couldve sworn one of our posters posted that there are no NZ scouts in the Islands and that poster clearly doesnt know untill now of course.:)

I think you'll find a majority of those "scouts" will probably be from schools like De La Salle College. All NZ talent in regards to picks from NPC and Junior Teams, are all from the schools systems (in which Toeava was very successful). you just have to look at his accomplishments in the school system. New Zealand schools team 2003-2005, U19 team 2005 (U19 Player of the Year). He would have had to have been younger than 17 when he arrived in New Zealand.
 
I know this is off the record a bit but so people know, Toeava came to NZ on a rugby scholarship as a youngster. There ARE scouts from NZ that monitor talent in Samoa, trust me I know this as fact. Im just putting that out there for people to know because I couldve sworn one of our posters posted that there are no NZ scouts in the Islands and that poster clearly doesnt know untill now of course.:)

According to this article Toeava moved to Auckland in 1994, meaning he would have been 8 at the time. Assuming the article is correct (and I have no reason to believe otherwise), that was some pretty phenomenal talent spotting ;)
 
According to this article Toeava moved to Auckland in 1994, meaning he would have been 8 at the time. Assuming the article is correct (and I have no reason to believe otherwise), that was some pretty phenomenal talent spotting ;)

Haha, I had a look earlier because I thought the Toeava thing sounded fishy, but I couldn't find anything on when he moved. Good spotting.

I guess the lesson is to research before taking some information at face value.

This article says the same

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/all-blacks/news/article.cfm?c_id=116&objectid=10356831
 
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Melhor Time

You are so wrong on so many counts in much of what you have posted in this thread that it is difficult to know where to begin.

The country has done a poor job of this since the sport went professional as it has brushed off requests from tis neighbours and is yet to ever play a single test in Fiji, Samoa or Tonga. Two of the three have been World Cup Quarter Finalists. The third defeated France several weeks ago in the World Cup. The NZRU and New Zealanders defend the lack of matches in the Islands stating the Islanders prefer to play in New Zealnd to take a share of the revenue. They also suggest other tier one unions don´t play against tier two sides in away matches.

We don't have to defend anything. The collective Rugby Unions of the Pacific Islands do not want test matches staged in the Pacific Islands. They want them staged in Auckland. The reason is simple.... money. These are the stadiums in the Pacific Islands....

Teufaiva Sport Stadium (Tonga)...10 000
Apia Park (Samoa) ...................15 000
TFL National Stadium (Fiji)........ 30 000

With the possible exception of Fiji, they do not have sufficient capacity with the kind of ticket prices they can charge in the islands to make any money. In fact Fiji is the only one that could break even. When matches against Pacific Island guest unions are hosted in NZ, ALL of the gate surplus isn't shared, it all goes straight to the guest union; the NZRU takes nothing. Tickets in NZ sell for three times what they could charge in their home country, because those Pacific Islanders that live in New Zealand are fiscally much better off than those left in the Islands. They can also get much bigger crowds so its a win + win situation for them. In 2004 a Samoa v Scotland match was scheduled for Apia Parkm. The Samoan RU worked that they were going to run at a $300,000 deficit on the match, so they requested THAT match be played in NZ. It was transferred to the Cake Tin, in Wellington, and the match made them over $350,000 surplus.

Surely you understand Fiji, Tonga and Samoa must be allowed to maximize their revenue, or are you suggesting that the IRB and NZRU "knows best" and treat them like parent treats a child who should do what they say.

In the ITM Cup the top players are missing and thus it is not the same product as Super Rugby.

This is just utter rubbish. The ONLY Super Rugby players "missing" are those in the current (at the time) All Black squad.... thats 30 players distributed over 14 teams (about 2 players per ITM Cup team). The impact of those players being missing is negligible. Also, you may not actually realise that several current All Blacks actually played for their ITM Cup teams, including Cruden, Carter, Hore, Woodcock, Donald, Vito, Thomson, Mealamu & Ali Williams. There may be others.

More importantly, this ignores the reality and does not answer the question, let alone address it, that Super Rugby teams have few to no imports. I would, kindly, ask you to take a look at Wales´four teams and the players there. Its proof that there is plenty of room for foreign players.
You are comparing apples with bananas. Yes, Wales have imports, but there are also Welsh players playing just a stone's throw away in the Premiership and the Top 14 .

[TEXTAREA]Craig Mitchell (Exeter Chiefs)
Andy Powell (Sale Sharks)
Mike Phillips (Bayonne)
James Hook (Perpignan)
Lee Byrne (Clermont-Auvergne)

Prior to Warren Gatland's announcement that Welsh players wouldl have a better chance of being selected for Wales if they played in Welsh Celtic League teams, there were a lot more of them playing in other European domestic competitions including non-Welsh Celtic League teams.

Huw Bennett (Leinster, Northampton Saints)
Ryan Bevington (Leinster)
Alun Wyn Jones (Leinster)
Ryan Jones (Leinster, Northampton Saints)
Andy Powell (Leicester Tigers, London Wasps) now at Sale Sharks
Stephen Jones (Clermont-Auvergne)
Shane Williams (Leinster)
[/TEXTAREA]

You simply cannot compare the NZ domestic setup with that in Europe, especially outside the Celtic Countries. Premiership and Top 14 teams are privately owned. totally self-interested setups that would rather have international rugby disappear off the map altogether. Not only that but they actively and regularly stand in the way of players playing for the countries usingn a variety of method including enticements and bonuses (the carrot) and threats to limit or terminate contracts (the stick). In fact, as had been pointed out in this link...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/5835961/Rich-Europe-squeezing-life-out-of-Pacific-rugby

....they have actually carried out those threats, and that my friend is a clear and flagrant breach of iRB Regulation 9

[TEXTAREA]REGULATION 9. AVAILABILITY OF PLAYERS
9.1 A Union has first and last call upon the availability of a Player for selection and appearances for a National Representative Team or National
Squad of that Union and all attendances associated therewith, including training sessions.

9.2 Subject to Regulation 9.5 below no Union, Association, Rugby Body or Club whether by contract or otherwise may inhibit, prevent or render
unavailable any player from selection, attendance and appearance in a National Representative Team or National Squad, including training sessions, and any Player must be released upon request by his Union.

9.3 No Union, Association, Rugby Body or Club may require any payment or other benefit from or impose conditions relating to a Player's participation
in a National Representative Team or National Squad of his Union.[/TEXTAREA]

Far from being the provider and savior of Island rugby, the club owners of the Top 14 (and the Premiership to a lesser extent) are a road block to their progress.
 
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Huw Bennett (Leinster, Northampton Saints)
Ryan Bevington (Leinster)
Alun Wyn Jones (Leinster)
Ryan Jones (Leinster, Northampton Saints)
Andy Powell (Leicester Tigers, London Wasps) now at Sale Sharks
Stephen Jones (Clermont-Auvergne)
Shane Williams (Leinster)

I may have read this wrong, but most of these didn't happen...
I think only the Andy Powell and Stephen Jones ones are correct?
 

I may have read this wrong, but most of these didn't happen...
I think only the Andy Powell and Stephen Jones ones are correct?

Huw Bennett - http://www.espnscrum.com/wales/rugby/player/14294.html

Ryan Bevington - http://www.espnscrum.com/wales/rugby/player/87285.html

Alun Wyn Jones - http://www.espnscrum.com/wales/rugby/player/15288.html

Ryan Jones - http://www.espnscrum.com/wales/rugby/player/14631.html

Shane Williams - http://www.espnscrum.com/wales/rugby/player/13285.html
 
That's me told! :p
I apologise, I suppose you can't trust wikipedia for everything :lol:
Literally the first I've heard of any of them though - maybe ESPN got it wrong?
I'm sure Shane has only played for Ospreys (and Neath), and not Leinster
 

I may have read this wrong, but most of these didn't happen...
I think only the Andy Powell and Stephen Jones ones are correct?


Yup, Shane has only ever played for Ospreys / in Wales same for Bevington, Wyn-jones, R.Jones, and Huw Bennett.

Only Andy Powell and Stephen Jones has played elsewhere

EDIT - I swear none of the players other than AP and SJ have played outside of Wales.. that must be a mistake tbh.
 
That's me told! :p
I apologise, I suppose you can't trust wikipedia for everything :lol:
Literally the first I've heard of any of them though - maybe ESPN got it wrong?
I'm sure Shane has only played for Ospreys (and Neath), and not Leinster

EPSN must have got it wrong. I am certainly they have.
 
OK, well if ESPNscrum.com have got it wrong, there is not much I can do about that. They are supposed to be a reliable source of information.

Perhaps someone in the know needs to set them straight.


PS: I never rely on wikipedia for ANYTHING.
 
It'd be nice if some of the lads above actually remembered to point out some of Melhor's errors too. It seems Smart Cooky error spotting (which seldom ever happens) is a forum habit nowadays. We've got a thread here basically saying that the NZRFU are self interested rogues trying to ruin the island nations and the most important thing seems to be a minority of possible technical errors from someone defending the NZRFU (the moustache twirling rich villain, tying island development to the tracks).
 
My only problem with the NZRU (though it's more for every union) is the lack of games in the P.Is, however as Cookie has pointed out it's just not a viable option.
Hopefully with proper touring coming back we can see more matches being played their (so, for example, if England was touring Australia, we'd see "England XV" playing against Fiji in Fiji mid-week)

I completely understand the lack of foreigners in the NZ super franchises

I think this whole thread is a bit daft, really, and just an attempt to have a go at NZ for no reason.
 

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