New Zealand as World Champions need to change themselves

[dullonien]

I don't understand what this thread is about. NZ have the best rugby structure in the world which brings through a steady stream of top players. Why would they want to change this and start importing players into their domestic leagues? The only reason to import a player should be because there isn't a NZ qualified player of equal ability or a youngster with big potential.

Comparing NZ to France or England is just stupid. England and France rely on a large number of foreign players to sustain the large number of teams in their top flight domestic competitions. NZ don't, it's as simple as that. If Wales or Ireland had enough quality players, then we to wouldn't have foreign players in our regions/provinces, however it's a needs must at the moment. The plan in Wales is still to reduce the number of foreign players as much as possible, cramming the regions with Welsh players, giving our national team the best opportunity of success. This is what NZ does, and it's working, because they are the best rugby nation on earth.

 

[DariusLovehall]

I don't understand what this thread is about. NZ have the best rugby structure in the world which brings through a steady stream of top players. Why would they want to change this and start importing players into their domestic leagues? The only reason to import a player should be because there isn't a NZ qualified player of equal ability or a youngster with big potential.

Comparing NZ to France or England is just stupid. England and France rely on a large number of foreign players to sustain the large number of teams in their top flight domestic competitions. NZ don't, it's as simple as that. If Wales or Ireland had enough quality players, then we to wouldn't have foreign players in our regions/provinces, however it's a needs must at the moment. The plan in Wales is still to reduce the number of foreign players as much as possible, cramming the regions with Welsh players, giving our national team the best opportunity of success. This is what NZ does, and it's working, because they are the best rugby nation on earth.

Succinct and well stated ....

Melhor - your points have been destroyed one after the other and yet you continue.
Its poor form to make a point and then run and hide when challenged to prove your point - you do it time and time again.
Your argument is ridiculous - and with every post you dig a bigger hole to get out of.

 

[Melhor Time]

Succinct and well stated ....

Melhor - your points have been destroyed one after the other and yet you continue.
Its poor form to make a point and then run and hide when challenged to prove your point - you do it time and time again.
Your argument is ridiculous - and with every post you dig a bigger hole to get out of.

Pretty big comments from someone just arriving. I am not hidding. I believe what I wrote to be true and have always backed it up with evidence. If you believe that the evience is not true then site something I wrote and we´ll debate it.

 

[DariusLovehall]

I actually took the time to read this thread and you don't debate as such..... because when your points are taken apart bit by bit
you still try and argue .... its painful to watch.
Every part of your arguments are systematically torn to pieces throughout this thread and you just keep going and proving
how futile it would be to engage by you.

Here in Wellington we refer to debating with people like you as ----- "******* into a Southerly in your good pants"

 

[Melhor Time]

I don't understand what this thread is about. NZ have the best rugby structure in the world which brings through a steady stream of top players. Why would they want to change this and start importing players into their domestic leagues? The only reason to import a player should be because there isn't a NZ qualified player of equal ability or a youngster with big potential.

Comparing NZ to France or England is just stupid. England and France rely on a large number of foreign players to sustain the large number of teams in their top flight domestic competitions. NZ don't, it's as simple as that. If Wales or Ireland had enough quality players, then we to wouldn't have foreign players in our regions/provinces, however it's a needs must at the moment. The plan in Wales is still to reduce the number of foreign players as much as possible, cramming the regions with Welsh players, giving our national team the best opportunity of success. This is what NZ does, and it's working, because they are the best rugby nation on earth.

If the model were universal then World Cup´s would suffer as France would import nobody nor would Japan, England, Ireland, Wales, Italy or Scotland. Consequently the level of the likes of Argentina, Fiji, Georgia, Canada and so on would be a shadow of what it is today. Looking back to why 2003 was not a success has become increasingly clear as sides have developed greatly thanks to more players having professional contracts and getting game time. I, for one, want 2019 to be all that much better than 2011 which was much better than 2003 as lop-sided matches were so common in 2003 but occured far less in 2011. This means opening the doors to develop imported players - I say some not lots in the case of New Zealand (and Australia).

I'd like for NZ to put all their money and sponsorship in the ITM Cup and get rid of the Super Rugby set up. Then out of the 14 teams in the ITM Cup, you could have a secondary tornement much like the one in the H-Cup

Who else agrees? I sure do. I think the NPC until RWC 1999 was probably the best domestic competition on the planet. In 1997 it clearly was. It has now turned into something very different. I think the Heineken Cup is so good because it runs during the season not before or after and so it does not have a similar negative impact as what has occured to New Zealand´s comp. Maybe something like the following should be considered? -

Start the season in February then break for Super Rugby over a two week period in March. Repeat the format one a month with the teams organized in Pools like the HEC. Do people like the idea or not?

You (foolishly) </SPAN>chose the wing position to make your point, but there are at least 20-25 wingers in New Zealand whom would essentially be guarenteed a position in almost any team in the world outside the top 8 (some would convincingly make the top 8), and this is outside of our choice wingers at this RWC.

</SPAN>

We are talking about two different things and I thought I had made this clear in the post when I mentioned tiers. You are talking of players who are of World Cup standard from the perspective that many could make the teams of other players. I am strictly talking about the New Zealand team, i.e. the level required to play wing for New Zealand not to play wing for another team. Sure Rene Ranger would make the Italian side, the Tongan side and the Scottish side but you are not looking at what I am putting on the table. He is a very, very good player and one of the best in New Zealand but can´t make the All Blacks at this point in time. He is not low down the list of 20-25 wingers either - he´d be maybe in the top three and certainly in the top five. Would you agree? There are many wingers behind him. This is a surplus - something I have covered but have been misintrepreted only to regularly be told I know nothing about New Zealand rugby. In my opinion, if there are players who are far from making the All Blacks, Wallabies or Springboks with Super Rugby contracts then there is room to replace some of them with imported players. Ranger could well be an All Black again but plenty of of 20-25 wingers mentioned won´t. Are we clear understanding eachother now? Since the improvement of Rugby World Cup´s has, without question, came from a boom of professional contracts for players then I feel justified in wanting Super Rugby to have more imports.

BTW.. remove to word foolish. Not need for it.

You then selected Declan O'Donnell to make a point that if he can make it into Super Rugby then Imhoff can despite almost anyone who has seen Declan O'Donnell play knows he's probably one of New Zealand's most promising wingers.

You are guessing that I have not seen O´Donnell play. More importantly, Imhoff is to start tonight in a Heineken Cup match vs the Cardiff Blues. A vital match. I´ll get to this a bit latter.

3. Your entire premise is that there are better players that could be selected outside of New Zealand, but we choose not to select them. That's not the case. There simply are no players outside New Zealand which are all of the following -

a) Better than existing talent (especially in the backline)
b) Comes at an affordable price (rules out pretty much anyone earning over $60,000 (NZ) or 30,000 (Euro) for a first year contract)
c) Has shown interest in playing in New Zealand (ie trying to earn selection by playing club level or at the minimum NPC or publically gone looking for a SR contract ie Haskell)

Nick, seriously this looks, to me, like you are guessing and certainly have not asked players themselves. I certainly don´t kwnot the details of every player but there are some that I do know of. In addition to knowing that they´d like to play in New Zealand they´ve made it clear on social media that they´d do whatever they had to to play Super Rugby. I had a discussion with a very knowledgable Australian about this in regards to the Melbourne Rebels who didn´t go after Argentine based players despite being given permission from the ARU to do so and despite Argentina´s place in the expanded Tri Nations already having been known. He told me that he was not only surprized but bothered as he took it to mean that they simply weren´t being watched. Senatore, Imhoff and others would all play for the Chiefs, Rebels or Bulls. I had a conversation with former NZ based player, Francisco Bosch, about the NPC and he´d love to go back. He is nowehere near the Pumas side but, by all accounts, did ok witht he Turbos.

You also seem to be guessing that the players can´t be bought as they´re too expensive. I can tell you that with 100% certainty you are off the mark. Consider the Vodacom Cup Final which Los Pampas XV won with players recieving far, far less than the NZ$60,000 mark pointed out by posters here. They were on figures of less than a third of this figure per year. The players were simply playing out of their skins to call the attention of Santiago Phelan for a possible World Cup place and praying that some team far away may offer a contract to go pro. Now, here is the team that won the Vodacom Cup and the clubs in brackets are where the player has since gone.

1 Bruno Postiglioni
2 Agustín Creevy (Montpellier, France)
3 Maximiliano Bustos (Montpellier, France)
4 Benjamín Macome
5 Mariano Galarza
6 Miguel De Achaval (captain)
7 Julio Cabello Farías
8 Leonardo Senatore (Toulon, France)
9 Martín Landajo
10 Nicolás Sánchez (Bordeaux-Begles, France)
11 Juan Imhoff (Racing Metro, France)
12 Agustín Gosio (London Scottish, England)
13 Gabriel Azcarate (possibly to join Lyon OU, France)
14 Román Miralles (ex Castres)
15 Joaquín Tuculet (Sale Sharks, England)

Those in bold also went to the World Cup.

You claim that foreign talent aren't welcome. I can't find a post on here that says that (It's a case of you reading what you want to read, yet again</SPAN>). What people have been trying to drill into you, is that signing with a New Zealand franchise comes with limitations which all New Zealand and foreign players have to accept (especially financially). People are also not willing to spend more money on inferior players than home talent.

Ok.

William18 said

.....trying to sign Tusi Pisi. Personally, I think that would be a good signing for the Hurricanes as we do not have good depth at number ten. However, it would keep Beauden Barrett, one of a number of promising first fives, out of the team..

Ranger said

It is a slap in the face to all the rugby players in New Zealand if a player is able to jump straight into Superrugby without proving themselves at the lower levels. The chances of a guy like Trainor going straight into the Crusaders is nil and im glad about that.

You yourself said early on

Why should we recuite players from overseas?.

Darwin 23

said It is not a case of not wanting others to benefit. It is simply a case of not wanting to do something that would be completely detrimental to our own rugby system. I'm all for altruistically helping others out, but doing so at the (possibly considerable) expense of ourselves makes no sense at all.

I can´t see how having a handful of imports in a squad of 30 or more players is detrimental to the All Blacks. I Therefore intrepret Darwin as really saying that foriegners are not wanted.

Smartcooky also interpreted my request for a few imports to mean I want imports gallore.

If the NZRU were to put in place the things you want; unlimited foreign involvement in Super Rugby Franchises and unrestricted selection of All Blacks who play outside New Zealand, it would utterly destroy the game in New Zealand.

No one is saying France have not been helpful to tier 2/3 teams. Of course they have. They've been inept in their own way, essentially forcing a minority of players to not play for their national teams, but on the whole their professional set up has helped teams like Argentina, Canada, Georgia, USA, Romania et al grow from training their players to be professional. No one has disputed that. And the French clubs benefit from some of the great players they have produced and signed. But the reality is, New Zealand cannot afford to provide the same level of help.

The Top 14 Final had players from Georgia, Samoa, Fiji, Argentina, South Africa, Spain and France. I am not asking for the Blues or Crusaders to copy this, not at all. I´ve said maybe a few in each squad not a starting XV with two imports - Montpellier had nine and Toulouse four. This is an example of providing help at a level which would not bring in the doom and gloom that Darwin and Smatrtcooky argue.

There probably is room for New Zealand to recuite a few Argentinian locks. Providing they meet the three criteria above.

And this concerns me because there is room. Mariano Galarza took a cheap offer to play in Ireland last season. He is an example of a player that could easily be at the Blues in place of Brad Mika. FYI They don´t have to be from Argentina. I´m for the global game.

Premise 1: Max Evans is a Super Rugby standard player playing in the French Top 14
Premise 2: Juan Imhoff plays in the Top 14 against Max Evans a Super Rugby Standard player, therefore
Conclusion: Juan Imhoff is a Super Rugby standard player.

Without patronizing you, this is unsound and invalid.

Thats one way of looking at it but I feel the guy could play Super Rugby and do well because he (a) came through the ranks of Argentine rugby performing well for Duendes in Rosario, (b) had success with Los Jaguares in the IRB Nations Cup and was nomined for try of the year, (c) had a great Vodacom Cup where he was nominated for player of the year and easily the leading try scorer, (d) scored good tries vs Romania and Georgia at the World Cup and almost got the win vs England too. Defended well too, inc stopping Aaron Cruden from scoring. (E) has gone into Racing Metro and been able to adapt straight away - creating the winning try vs Castres and now has beenr etained for the Heineken Cup matches. Very often Medical Jokers are out of the Heineken Cup due to rules and regulations. The fact Racing Metro have him playing less than a month after arriving says that the coach, who is a former international player for France and Italian coach, thinks he is more than useful. Sorry if you felt I was saying he was good without backing it up. Hopefully this helps as the player has a future and is likely to knock Horacio Agulla out of the Pumas team. He has been Leicester´s regular right winger and Pumas left winger in both RWC 2007 and 2011. Not my favorite player but certainly someone of note.

Ok - I am off to a city called Mogi das Cruzes for a vital Sevens event this weekend. Its only a 600KM drive...... Should be interesting though. 6 players from the Brazilian team will be playing. Then its a national holiday on Tuesday and this means Monday is a holiday too so I´ll be away from this site until late next week. I´ll check back to then. until then até mais (see you latter)!

 

[nickdnz]

If the model were universal then World Cup´s would suffer as France would import nobody nor would Japan, England, Ireland, Wales, Italy or Scotland. Consequently the level of the likes of Argentina, Fiji, Georgia, Canada and so on would be a shadow of what it is today. Looking back to why 2003 was not a success has become increasingly clear as sides have developed greatly thanks to more players having professional contracts and getting game time. I, for one, want 2019 to be all that much better than 2011 which was much better than 2003 as lop-sided matches were so common in 2003 but occured far less in 2011. This means opening the doors to develop imported players - I say some not lots in the case of New Zealand (and Australia).


Who else agrees? I sure do. I think the NPC until RWC 1999 was probably the best domestic competition on the planet. In 1997 it clearly was. It has now turned into something very different. I think the Heineken Cup is so good because it runs during the season not before or after and so it does not have a similar negative impact as what has occured to New Zealand´s comp. Maybe something like the following should be considered? -

Start the season in February then break for Super Rugby over a two week period in March. Repeat the format one a month with the teams organized in Pools like the HEC. Do people like the idea or not?

</SPAN>

We are talking about two different things and I thought I had made this clear in the post when I mentioned tiers. You are talking of players who are of World Cup standard from the perspective that many could make the teams of other players. I am strictly talking about the New Zealand team, i.e. the level required to play wing for New Zealand not to play wing for another team. Sure Rene Ranger would make the Italian side, the Tongan side and the Scottish side but you are not looking at what I am putting on the table. He is a very, very good player and one of the best in New Zealand but can´t make the All Blacks at this point in time. He is not low down the list of 20-25 wingers either - he´d be maybe in the top three and certainly in the top five. Would you agree? There are many wingers behind him. This is a surplus - something I have covered but have been misintrepreted only to regularly be told I know nothing about New Zealand rugby. In my opinion, if there are players who are far from making the All Blacks, Wallabies or Springboks with Super Rugby contracts then there is room to replace some of them with imported players. Ranger could well be an All Black again but plenty of of 20-25 wingers mentioned won´t. Are we clear understanding eachother now? Since the improvement of Rugby World Cup´s has, without question, came from a boom of professional contracts for players then I feel justified in wanting Super Rugby to have more imports.

BTW.. remove to word foolish. Not need for it.



You are guessing that I have not seen O´Donnell play. More importantly, Imhoff is to start tonight in a Heineken Cup match vs the Cardiff Blues. A vital match. I´ll get to this a bit latter.



Nick, seriously this looks, to me, like you are guessing and certainly have not asked players themselves. I certainly don´t kwnot the details of every player but there are some that I do know of. In addition to knowing that they´d like to play in New Zealand they´ve made it clear on social media that they´d do whatever they had to to play Super Rugby. I had a discussion with a very knowledgable Australian about this in regards to the Melbourne Rebels who didn´t go after Argentine based players despite being given permission from the ARU to do so and despite Argentina´s place in the expanded Tri Nations already having been known. He told me that he was not only surprized but bothered as he took it to mean that they simply weren´t being watched. Senatore, Imhoff and others would all play for the Chiefs, Rebels or Bulls. I had a conversation with former NZ based player, Francisco Bosch, about the NPC and he´d love to go back. He is nowehere near the Pumas side but, by all accounts, did ok witht he Turbos.

You also seem to be guessing that the players can´t be bought as they´re too expensive. I can tell you that with 100% certainty you are off the mark. Consider the Vodacom Cup Final which Los Pampas XV won with players recieving far, far less than the NZ$60,000 mark pointed out by posters here. They were on figures of less than a third of this figure per year. The players were simply playing out of their skins to call the attention of Santiago Phelan for a possible World Cup place and praying that some team far away may offer a contract to go pro. Now, here is the team that won the Vodacom Cup and the clubs in brackets are where the player has since gone.

1 Bruno Postiglioni
2 Agustín Creevy (Montpellier, France)
3 Maximiliano Bustos (Montpellier, France)
4 Benjamín Macome
5 Mariano Galarza
6 Miguel De Achaval (captain)
7 Julio Cabello Farías
8 Leonardo Senatore (Toulon, France)
9 Martín Landajo
10 Nicolás Sánchez (Bordeaux-Begles, France)
11 Juan Imhoff (Racing Metro, France)
12 Agustín Gosio (London Scottish, England)
13 Gabriel Azcarate (possibly to join Lyon OU, France)
14 Román Miralles (ex Castres)
15 Joaquín Tuculet (Sale Sharks, England)

Those in bold also went to the World Cup.



Ok.

William18 said

Ranger said QUOTE]It is a slap in the face to all the rugby players in New Zealand if a player is able to jump straight into Superrugby without proving themselves at the lower levels. The chances of a guy like Trainor going straight into the Crusaders is nil and im glad about that.

You yourself said early on

Darwin 23

I can´t see how having a handful of imports in a squad of 30 or more players is detrimental to the All Blacks. I Therefore intrepret Darwin as really saying that foriegners are not wanted.

Smartcooky also interpreted my request for a few imports to mean I want imports gallore.



The Top 14 Final had players from Georgia, Samoa, Fiji, Argentina, South Africa, Spain and France. I am not asking for the Blues or Crusaders to copy this, not at all. I´ve said maybe a few in each squad not a starting XV with two imports - Montpellier had nine and Toulouse four. This is an example of providing help at a level which would not bring in the doom and gloom that Darwin and Smatrtcooky argue.



And this concerns me because there is room. Mariano Galarza took a cheap offer to play in Ireland last season. He is an example of a player that could easily be at the Blues in place of Brad Mika. FYI They don´t have to be from Argentina. I´m for the global game.



Thats one way of looking at it but I feel the guy could play Super Rugby and do well because he (a) came through the ranks of Argentine rugby performing well for Duendes in Rosario, (b) had success with Los Jaguares in the IRB Nations Cup and was nomined for try of the year, (c) had a great Vodacom Cup where he was nominated for player of the year and easily the leading try scorer, (d) scored good tries vs Romania and Georgia at the World Cup and almost got the win vs England too. Defended well too, inc stopping Aaron Cruden from scoring. (E) has gone into Racing Metro and been able to adapt straight away - creating the winning try vs Castres and now has beenr etained for the Heineken Cup matches. Very often Medical Jokers are out of the Heineken Cup due to rules and regulations. The fact Racing Metro have him playing less than a month after arriving says that the coach, who is a former international player for France and Italian coach, thinks he is more than useful. Sorry if you felt I was saying he was good without backing it up. Hopefully this helps as the player has a future and is likely to knock Horacio Agulla out of the Pumas team. He has been Leicester´s regular right winger and Pumas left winger in both RWC 2007 and 2011. Not my favorite player but certainly someone of note.

Ok - I am off to a city called Mogi das Cruzes for a vital Sevens event this weekend. Its only a 600KM drive...... Should be interesting though. 6 players from the Brazilian team will be playing. Then its a national holiday on Tuesday and this means Monday is a holiday too so I´ll be away from this site until late next week. I´ll check back to then. until then até mais (see you latter)![/QUOTE]

Hey man, enjoyed this read. Probaby my favourite of your posts so far. Good reply.

1. Good to hear it. For a couple of years I've wanted this to happen. It just makes more sense than the current system, and would generate more interest and potentially more money. You also end up with more or less the same amount of games.

2. I do understand this, but in my opinion many of the players are still ahead in terms of talent than Juan Imhoff in my opinion, as he would get no where near the All Blacks either. I suspect Ranger will eventually get a lot more time for the All Blacks in the future, although I hope it's at centre. The thing is, there are players who are fourth choice wingers which I suspect may one day make the All Blacks. At least 15 of those wingers have the potential to be an All Blacks standard wing, however some don't get enough exposure to Super Rugby (and buying talent wouldn't help that). Players like Declan O'Donnell, Buxton Popoalii, George Moala, Telusa Veainu, Julian Savea etc atc, are all younger than 23, so it's hard to know exactly how far they will go, they could all be All Blacks or they could eventuaklly be found wanting. Regardless, they have a much better chance of making the All Blacks and improving than if they were not selected for an overseas player, in which they would probably be forever lost to us for overseas clubs.

I in frustration I chose the wrong choice of word in foolishly (sorry), I think I was going more for "in vain" or "in futility", which while not much better, perhaps don't have the same negative connetations behind it. Sorry about that (won't change the post, as it's a cop out on my part).

I'm not guessing, rather looking at the influx of players you have mentioned that are now playing in the Top 14. In your Pumas XV side, many of the best players are now playing in Europe earning considerably more than they would in NZ. The point regarding players now wanting to play here for overseas, is equally obvious in our own players. There is a reason why we can't keep so many of them, as even the players in the top echlon of rugby, are earning well below their potential.

The problem with selecting a small portions of quotes regarding opinions, is that I can make Nelson Mandela appear like Adult Hitler. In context, the point I think almost all those selected posts make, is that when you have a foreign player who is being imported to replace a more talented home grown talent. That's just bad decision making. Your particular quote from Darwin is very wrong interpreted. I don't think Darwin is against any imports, more that your idea of what we should do regarding imports would seriously damage New Zealand rugby. And it would. If we were to pay players their going rate in Europe, NZ rugby would die. The amount of money teams get each you to pay players is not large, and some imported players would take up a huge chunk of that. Not only that, but as I mentioned if foreign talent are selected over home talent, players just leave for more money. Look at Colin Bourke, missed out to Haskell so is now looking to move to France. Now I don't mind that. Good on Haskell for taking a huge drop in pay to experience Super Rugby, and Colin Bourke just hasn't fixed his game to warrent selection. No one in NZ really minds that (a part from BOP fans), it's just that he was willing to lower the price down to a point that we could accomidate him.

I have been under the impression, that you were hoping for more than two or three foreign players per team. Other than PI players (who have been pointed as not even included as Foreign), there is very little exposure to players from the third tier. The big thing for them to get selection would be to play club rugby in NZ. Unless they have visited a Rugby Union in NZ they wouldn't get a look in anyway. The way for any player to play in NZ is to shine in the domestic competition, and then get selected for Itm Cup. I realize it sounds like jumping through hoops, but it is a fair way for any player to be selected. It's essentially the equivelent of a trial. Francisco Bosch was a bit of a cult hero in Manawatu, but he had to show interest in playing in NZ. With any luck, more players will be selected, especially after this "Rugby Championship" because comparrisons will be more easily made and they will spend a bit more time in NZ to talk to SR teams. I wouldn't expect players like Contepomi would take such a pay cut, but other may who don't have offers on the table or are just enthusiastic about playing Super Rugby.

Nice point for Bosch. I have seen him play in the Vodacom Cup, and he is exciting and talented. I'm still not totally convinced he'd make a Super Rugby as a starter, and would find it difficult to keep out most of the home grown talent who are equally as exciting. What he does have going for him, is that he's played on a big stage, which I suppose would go some way towards getting prefered selection. Regardless, he's now earning hundreds and thousands of dollars playing in France, so there isn't much chance he'll join a Super Rugby team in the near future, as we can't afford him.

Enjoy the 7's man. Massive drive. Fantastic. Wish I was there, ideally by plane. I've organised my own little 7's event which I'm off to, however it is just some mates down the local park...and their all smaller than me and don't play rugby. It's like the bully version of the game, but I know I'll enjoy it.

 

[james5000]

You yourself said early on

Darwin 23

I can´t see how having a handful of imports in a squad of 30 or more players is detrimental to the All Blacks. I Therefore intrepret Darwin as really saying that foriegners are not wanted.

Smartcooky also interpreted my request for a few imports to mean I want imports gallore.



The Top 14 Final had players from Georgia, Samoa, Fiji, Argentina, South Africa, Spain and France. I am not asking for the Blues or Crusaders to copy this, not at all. I´ve said maybe a few in each squad not a starting XV with two imports - Montpellier had nine and Toulouse four. This is an example of providing help at a level which would not bring in the doom and gloom that Darwin and Smatrtcooky argue.



And this concerns me because there is room. Mariano Galarza took a cheap offer to play in Ireland last season. He is an example of a player that could easily be at the Blues in place of Brad Mika. FYI They don´t have to be from Argentina. I´m for the global game.



Thats one way of looking at it but I feel the guy could play Super Rugby and do well because he (a) came through the ranks of Argentine rugby performing well for Duendes in Rosario, (b) had success with Los Jaguares in the IRB Nations Cup and was nomined for try of the year, (c) had a great Vodacom Cup where he was nominated for player of the year and easily the leading try scorer, (d) scored good tries vs Romania and Georgia at the World Cup and almost got the win vs England too. Defended well too, inc stopping Aaron Cruden from scoring. (E) has gone into Racing Metro and been able to adapt straight away - creating the winning try vs Castres and now has beenr etained for the Heineken Cup matches. Very often Medical Jokers are out of the Heineken Cup due to rules and regulations. The fact Racing Metro have him playing less than a month after arriving says that the coach, who is a former international player for France and Italian coach, thinks he is more than useful. Sorry if you felt I was saying he was good without backing it up. Hopefully this helps as the player has a future and is likely to knock Horacio Agulla out of the Pumas team. He has been Leicester´s regular right winger and Pumas left winger in both RWC 2007 and 2011. Not my favorite player but certainly someone of note.

Ok - I am off to a city called Mogi das Cruzes for a vital Sevens event this weekend. Its only a 600KM drive...... Should be interesting though. 6 players from the Brazilian team will be playing. Then its a national holiday on Tuesday and this means Monday is a holiday too so I´ll be away from this site until late next week. I´ll check back to then. until then até mais (see you latter)!

Hey man, enjoyed this read. Probaby my favourite of your posts so far. Good reply.

1. Good to hear it. For a couple of years I've wanted this to happen. It just makes more sense than the current system, and would generate more interest and potentially more money. You also end up with more or less the same amount of games.

2. I do understand this, but in my opinion many of the players are still ahead in terms of talent than Juan Imhoff in my opinion, as he would get no where near the All Blacks either. I suspect Ranger will eventually get a lot more time for the All Blacks in the future, although I hope it's at centre. The thing is, there are players who are fourth choice wingers which I suspect may one day make the All Blacks. At least 15 of those wingers have the potential to be an All Blacks standard wing, however some don't get enough exposure to Super Rugby (and buying talent wouldn't help that). Players like Declan O'Donnell, Buxton Popoalii, George Moala, Telusa Veainu, Julian Savea etc atc, are all younger than 23, so it's hard to know exactly how far they will go, they could all be All Blacks or they could eventuaklly be found wanting. Regardless, they have a much better chance of making the All Blacks and improving than if they were not selected for an overseas player, in which they would probably be forever lost to us for overseas clubs.

I in frustration I chose the wrong choice of word in foolishly (sorry), I think I was going more for "in vain" or "in futility", which while not much better, perhaps don't have the same negative connetations behind it. Sorry about that (won't change the post, as it's a cop out on my part).

I'm not guessing, rather looking at the influx of players you have mentioned that are now playing in the Top 14. In your Pumas XV side, many of the best players are now playing in Europe earning considerably more than they would in NZ. The point regarding players now wanting to play here for overseas, is equally obvious in our own players. There is a reason why we can't keep so many of them, as even the players in the top echlon of rugby, are earning well below their potential.

The problem with selecting a small portions of quotes regarding opinions, is that I can make Nelson Mandela appear like Adult Hitler. In context, the point I think almost all those selected posts make, is that when you have a foreign player who is being imported to replace a more talented home grown talent. That's just bad decision making. Your particular quote from Darwin is very wrong interpreted. I don't think Darwin is against any imports, more that your idea of what we should do regarding imports would seriously damage New Zealand rugby. And it would. If we were to pay players their going rate in Europe, NZ rugby would die. The amount of money teams get each you to pay players is not large, and some imported players would take up a huge chunk of that. Not only that, but as I mentioned if foreign talent are selected over home talent, players just leave for more money. Look at Colin Bourke, missed out to Haskell so is now looking to move to France. Now I don't mind that. Good on Haskell for taking a huge drop in pay to experience Super Rugby, and Colin Bourke just hasn't fixed his game to warrent selection. No one in NZ really minds that (a part from BOP fans), it's just that he was willing to lower the price down to a point that we could accomidate him.

I have been under the impression, that you were hoping for more than two or three foreign players per team. Other than PI players (who have been pointed as not even included as Foreign), there is very little exposure to players from the third tier. The big thing for them to get selection would be to play club rugby in NZ. Unless they have visited a Rugby Union in NZ they wouldn't get a look in anyway. The way for any player to play in NZ is to shine in the domestic competition, and then get selected for Itm Cup. I realize it sounds like jumping through hoops, but it is a fair way for any player to be selected. It's essentially the equivelent of a trial. Francisco Bosch was a bit of a cult hero in Manawatu, but he had to show interest in playing in NZ. With any luck, more players will be selected, especially after this "Rugby Championship" because comparrisons will be more easily made and they will spend a bit more time in NZ to talk to SR teams. I wouldn't expect players like Contepomi would take such a pay cut, but other may who don't have offers on the table or are just enthusiastic about playing Super Rugby.

Nice point for Bosch. I have seen him play in the Vodacom Cup, and he is exciting and talented. I'm still not totally convinced he'd make a Super Rugby as a starter, and would find it difficult to keep out most of the home grown talent who are equally as exciting. What he does have going for him, is that he's played on a big stage, which I suppose would go some way towards getting prefered selection. Regardless, he's now earning hundreds and thousands of dollars playing in France, so there isn't much chance he'll join a Super Rugby team in the near future, as we can't afford him.

Enjoy the 7's man. Massive drive. Fantastic. Wish I was there, ideally by plane. I've organised my own little 7's event which I'm off to, however it is just some mates down the local park...and their all smaller than me and don't play rugby. It's like the bully version of the game, but I know I'll enjoy it.

I have never heard a BOP fan disappointed that Bourke didn't play for the Highlanders, I am pretty sure you haven't either. Why the hell would we care about the Highlanders! He should have been in the Chiefs ffs.

 

[smartcooky]

Melhor Time, you are an "Idealist"

The Idealists of this world live and die by the philosophy that everyone is the same and that if "A" does something a certain way and achieves a certain result, then if "B" does it the same way they will achieve the same result. If it were true, then everyone on the planet would be millionaires.

I, on the other hand, am a "Realist"

The Realists of this world understand that a "one size fits all" philosophy does not work with 99.99999% of the planet's populace. Quite simply, there are too many variables, inconsistencies and differences between countries, people and places for such a philosophy to ever work on a global scale

The NZRU's first and foremost responsibility is to work in the best interests of New Zealand Rugby and its stakeholders, both actual (sponsors and other financial supporters) and moral (the fans). They have a policy of...

a. not selecting All Blacks who do not play in NZ domestic competitions
b. restricting the number of non-NZ eligible players playing in NZ domestic

This is a policy that works. It probably does so for a combination of reasons that are quite unique to NZ, for example, geographical isolation, relatively small population size (leading to relatively small fiscal overheads), relatively good economy and above all, the position of Rugby as the undisputed No. 1 sport in the country.

The non-selection of All Blacks from the pool of players playing overseas is an absolute no-brainer.

Firstly, why would they need to when we have enough talent right here in NZ to get the job done. We just won a world cup, losing our 1st string flyhalf before the end of the pool stages, our second string flyhalf goes down in the semi-final, our third string flyhalf goes down in the final and our 4th string flyhalf comes on and kicks the winning goal. Who the hell needs Nick Evans?

Secondly, how difficult is it to get these players back from Europe when we need them? Sure, it would be easy at World Cup time to just pluck the "best" player in any position from some club competition in Europe, but that takes away from the fact that teams develop systems and game plans and rely on the players they have already been using and training with the squads in the development of those systems and game plans.

Thirdly, while it is easy for England to pick players playing in France, and Wales to pick players playing in England, it is not that easy here. You can fly from any Six Nations country to any other Six Nations country in under two hours for less than â'¬50. Players can easily play for their club on Sunday, their country the next Friday and be back playing for their club the following Saturday; and do so cheaply. However, to fly a player to New Zealand takes 24 hours each way and costs about â'¬2800. Quite aside from the fact that the player will have less than a week to train with the team, he is likely to be exhausted by the trip, and I'm sure that his club won't be very happy about him coming back jet-lagged.

In summary, it is simply impractical to select players from Europe. Rugby League has tried this, but now, they simply don't bother. You may get a batter player, but you won't be able to get the best out of him. The NZRU's policies have kept us in the top three countries in the world, and an No. 1 for more time than any other country for at least the last 30 years. Why on earth would they want to change a policy that has been so successful? Why on earth would they want to risk long term damage to New Zealand rugby by changing it? It is NOT broken and so it DOES NOT need fixing?

I acknowledge that this policy might not work for others. Clearly it would not work for Argentina, and short of someone working some kind of economic miracle in that country, I can't see such a policy ever working there. But equally, their system will not work for us either. Screwing our domestic competitions and ending up having to go cap in hand to European clubs begging for the use of our players is not something I ever want to see the NZRU have to resort to, and read my lips, that WILL happen if we remove the restrictions allow players not playing in NZ to be selected for the All Blacks.

Only AFTER they have satisfied the requirements of looking after the future of NZ Rugby, can they then turn their attention to dealing with any lesser responsibilities they have to the global game. To that end, they have representatives on the International Rugby Board. Note the emphasis... International . The iRB are responsible for looking after the global game as a whole. Their responsibilities are listed on the their website...

[TEXTAREA]

• Governance of the Laws and Regulations and their enforcement
• Tournament owners and managers
• Global game development through Member Unions funding via grants and Strategic Investment programmes, and delivery of Education & Development programmes
• Game promotion

[/TEXTAREA]

 

[User1245]

I agree with everything smartcooky said.

In fact, I think NZ is already showing the world how things can be done with a very limit population and somewhat limit resources compared to the other rugby powers. They have their priorities in check and use their resources very effectively. Aus is like this too in many regards. Rugby support is limit and sporadic and they have no domestic comp yet they still up there with the best. SA on the other hand is wasteful imo, and we don't focus on our talent nearly as much.

Islander unions should rather seek consultation and guidance from the NZRU rather than seeking to leech from their system.

 

[smartcooky]

Steve-O

The Australians really do punch well above their weight. Given that they do not have a second tier competition below Super Rugby (yes they have the Shute Sheild in Sydney and the Hospital Cup in Brisbane, but those are hardly comparable to NZ's ITM Cup or South Africa's Currie Cup), and given that they have little more than half the player base we have, and that Rugby Union is a distant fourth in football codes in Australia, the fact that they have two World Cups and are consistently in the top three or four in the world shows that they have their planning and resources right.

Its hard to believe that the ARU went within a whisker of receivership in the 1970's, and it was only a bail-out by the NZRFU that saved them when the IRFB wouldn't lift a finger to help.

 

[User1245]

Interesting, I never knew the Kiwi's bailed the Aussie's out. Was a very important move in the long because if I remember correctly the Aussie's only started being consistently competitive with SA and NZ from the 70's?

 

[UilamOsa]

Now I know your all ****, BOP supporters are passionate people, we like to defend our own. We don't like them playing for other franchises and why would you make a ridiculous defensive statement like that? Just covering up for something I think!!!

Bourke has been ousted by a coach who has a Hurricanes region background and that's pretty obvious when you look at the number of Hurricanes region players in the team. Sure some of these players have great potential but there is a definite and distinct bias to picking players he (Rennie) already has an affiliation with.

Lol child, that was a pathetic insult bet you just came of age last week and now you think your a big man!!!

As far as this thread goes Melhor has some good points, but much of it just doesn't quite hit the mark.

I agree the AB's should definitely pursue playing the Island nations in their home countries. It shouldn't just be about the dollars and cents, its pathetic they haven't played there tbh. They could maybe play a home and away game in a calendar year and spread the wealth if they wanted too.

More Imports in Super Rugby is certain to happen one day, its just the way of modern sport. I don't think that players can just expect to walk in to Super Rugby with marginal top level rugby (ala Imhoff), potential is one thing but you have to have a proven history to warrant automatic selection (ala Haskell). Imports in my eye's will be marquee type players, players that are not just marginally better than local players, but have proven to be better. If you want to come and play Super Rugby as a tier 2 rep, you will most likely need to earn your way to selection playing minimum ITM cup rugby first.

If you look at how much the tier two nations have developed since the last world cup, you have to admit the world of rugby is looking healthier than it ever has been before. Overall the standard of play was very good.

At first when he wasn't selected, I had thought that may have been the case but then when no team picks him up - not even the hammettCANES - surely the issue is with him. Even the Highlanders saw fit to put in a World Class backrower instead of him.
I'm a massive fan of Bourke but he floats in and out of games much like Sione Lauaki did. I don't think the Chiefs need or wanted that, and they've got enough class in their backline without him.

As earlier posted by someone (couldn't be bothered finding out who - sorry) I'd prefer the idea of scrapping S15 and operating with the ITM cup as the principal comp interwined with a major southern hemisphere comp like in the UK.

And for Melhor http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/5953794/Argentine-players-eyed-up-for-Super-Rugby

 

[smartcooky]

At first when he wasn't selected, I had thought that may have been the case but then when no team picks him up - not even the hammettCANES - surely the issue is with him. Even the Highlanders saw fit to put in a World Class backrower instead of him.
I'm a massive fan of Bourke but he floats in and out of games much like Sione Lauaki did. I don't think the Chiefs need or wanted that, and they've got enough class in their backline without him.

Hard to argue with that!!!

And for Melhor http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/5953794/Argentine-players-eyed-up-for-Super-Rugby

[TEXTAREA]The man formerly in charge of Manawatu and New Zealand Under-20 has just returned from a week in the South American country where he, with Blues coach Pat Lam and Northland coach Adrian Ferris, ran a two-day coaching course at a Buenos Aires club for more than 200 locals. [/TEXTAREA]

But NZ rugby does nothing for developing nations!

I am not surprised to read this, because it is not the first time that NZ coaches have gone to Argentina for this type of coaching clinic. NZ Club coaches are regulars to the Pacific Islands as well. I was involved in a school coaching clinic in Tonga back in 2006 with a couple of other local coaches. These types of things are never reported in the papers because they are not high-profile enough.

 

[Darwin]

We are talking about two different things and I thought I had made this clear in the post when I mentioned tiers. You are talking of players who are of World Cup standard from the perspective that many could make the teams of other players. I am strictly talking about the New Zealand team, i.e. the level required to play wing for New Zealand not to play wing for another team. Sure Rene Ranger would make the Italian side, the Tongan side and the Scottish side but you are not looking at what I am putting on the table. He is a very, very good player and one of the best in New Zealand but can´t make the All Blacks at this point in time. He is not low down the list of 20-25 wingers either - he´d be maybe in the top three and certainly in the top five. Would you agree? There are many wingers behind him. This is a surplus - something I have covered but have been misintrepreted only to regularly be told I know nothing about New Zealand rugby. In my opinion, if there are players who are far from making the All Blacks, Wallabies or Springboks with Super Rugby contracts then there is room to replace some of them with imported players. Ranger could well be an All Black again but plenty of of 20-25 wingers mentioned won´t. Are we clear understanding eachother now? Since the improvement of Rugby World Cup´s has, without question, came from a boom of professional contracts for players then I feel justified in wanting Super Rugby to have more imports.

I understand that point - you are right to suggest that 3rd/4th wings in Super franchises are unlikely to be AB's this year. However, that is certainly not to say they won't be AB's wings within the next couple of years for a few reasons:
(a) The current exodus of New Zealand players overseas means that some of the top wings this season could well be gone next season - New Zealand needs depth to fill the holes left by the numerous top players than leave every year.
(b) All of these 3rd/4th wing options are young talented players. If these wings were older players that had no chance of getting near the AB's you may have a valid point, but this is not the case. The likes of Veainu, Osbourne, Nemani, O'Donnell, Raikuna, Moala are all in their early 20's (some barely in their 20's), and all have the potential to be in the AB's within the next couple of years.

I think in many ways it is unfortunate that you suggested the wing position to make your point, as it is arguably the position of greatest depth in NZ rugby, and probably the only position where every Super Rugby player has the potential to be an All Black. Lock is a much better example: I don't think that many New Zealander's would have that many issues if (for example) Galarza had been picked at lock rather than Ross Kennedy, as Kennedy is unlikely to ever be an All Black.

I can´t see how having a handful of imports in a squad of 30 or more players is detrimental to the All Blacks. I Therefore intrepret Darwin as really saying that foriegners are not wanted.

The problem is you interpreted what I said completely wrong (as Nickdnz has already pointed out). I have no problem with franchises having a couple of imports - indeed this is the status quo. You are clearly debating that they need to have more imports than the status quo - i.e. you are suggesting that they need more than a few imports for team. It is not the imports themselves that are the major issue, it is the fact that the NZRFU would be spending their (very limited) money on paying for these imports (which would be much better spent on developing the game), and the fact that to get such imports they would probably have to pay them far more than a similar quality NZ player.

It is all well and good to suggest that NZ franchises need more imports, but you really need to ask the question: "why don't NZ franchises have more imports?". As has been pointed out NZ franchises are allowed up to two imports, so that is clearly not a limiting factor - therefore simply increasing this number to (for example) five imports per team isn't likely to change number of imports that franchise has.

I think TRF C A Iverson explained the reason why many of teams choose not to pick imports very well here. Just to expand on his second point (which I think is a key point). If a franchises were to selected Imhoff on a two year contract (say the Chiefs), they are very unlikely to get more than two years out of him - in contrast they could potentially keep someone like O'Donnell for 10 years. Assuming Imhoff plays well, at the end of his two year contract why would he stay in NZ? He's unlikely to have any family keeping him in NZ, he has the potential to earn substantially more money overseas, and unlike someone like O'Donnell he doesn't have the lure of an AB's jersey to help keep him in NZ. Franchises would get a couple of years out of the player, but would be far better off going for an equally talented local player who could be the corner-stone of the franchise for the next 10 years. I think that is the point that many New Zealander's here are making - it is not that Juan Imhoff is not good enough for Super Rugby (indeed he scored a brilliant try against Cardiff just a few days ago), it is that he is not clearly better than the local players. Hence, for the reasons TRF C A Iverson explained, franchises will go for a local player rather than an import.

I can see teams going after a more established player to fill an area of weakness in the team (see James Haskell). They know that they may only get a year or two out of the player, but they will hope to get the best out of them for these two years.

Ok - I am off to a city called Mogi das Cruzes for a vital Sevens event this weekend. Its only a 600KM drive...... Should be interesting though. 6 players from the Brazilian team will be playing. Then its a national holiday on Tuesday and this means Monday is a holiday too so I´ll be away from this site until late next week. I´ll check back to then. until then até mais (see you latter)!

Hope you have a good time. You are lucky that you still have rugby to watch - there has been next to nothing in NZ since the RWC finished.

 

[Melhor Time]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...ne-players-eyed-up-for-Super-RugbyInteresting to see. It will be good if it pans out. Good responses. I think we can say the thread has been put to bed. It has gone in a new direction and rather than discuss it here I´ll go about starting some new discussions shortly as there are a few areas to cover such as the structure of Super Rugby, Pacific Islands home matches and Tier one sides vs the Pacific Islands sides. FYI The Sevens event was good too. A player from my side broke his arm (radius bone) though. I may need shoulder surgery myself .