Scotland v New Zealand

[TRF_Olyy]

I think SBW playing well at 12 is a good thing for Nonu as well,
Though there are obviously some very talented 12s in NZ, Nonus been almost guaranteed the 12 shirt for a little while now, so it's good to have some healthy competition for the spot, it'll push him on to make some more top performances.

 

[smartcooky]

His offload is the best in the world and here in NZ we love to keep the ball alive as long as we can so I'm a huge fan. There are some haters out there, not sure why after his performance against the Scots. I saw some one earlier in this topic saying "oh he wont be happy if he does it in the semi final etc.." Well I'm pretty sure Henry ,McCaw and Co. wouldnt be happy either and I cant see Sonny making those errors. Hes smart

There are some who have taken entrenched views on SBW, for example Willie Lo'se (who is IMO a total plonker) and they won't/can't change their minds, probably due to a perceived loss of face.

Actually, Lo'se is the reason I no longer listen to Saturday Scoreboard as much as I used to. I listen in at around midday, and if Murray Deaker is in the chair, I will continue to listen, but if Lo'se is the host, I switch off or listen to something else. Apparently, I am among the many; Saturday Scoreboard has lost listeners by the thousand since the arrival Lo'se.

 

[Larksea]

that guy is a bit of a tosser, I know someone who was a teacher of his at high school and he has some interesting stories about old Lo'se hehe

 

[Shaggy]

I was watching the match in a local pub with a Kiwi couple. I asked them who they would prefer in the mid-field for the World Cup, Sonny Bill or Nonu along with Smith. They both said Sonny Bill and Smith as Nonu is too hot and cold. To be fair they seemed to be a member of the Sonny Bill Williams fan club during the hole match - every time New Zealand had the ball they were screaming to pass it to Sonny Bill. What is the opinion of the Kiwi's in this forum? From the New Zealander's I've spoken to they believe Sonny Bill is the man of the moment.

Yep, my answer is all three, probably with SBW coming off the bench for Nonu (at this stage), only because of the experience factor ... SBW himself has said the Nonu-Smith combination is the best (at the moment)

 

[Larksea]

Yep, my answer is all three, probably with SBW coming off the bench for Nonu (at this stage), only because of the experience factor ... SBW himself has said the Nonu-Smith combination is the best (at the moment)

well he wouldn't say anything else would he... I mean how many games have smith & Nonu played together?

he's had 2 games one with Nonu and one with smith and IMO in both games he was more impressive than Either smith or Nonu. Early days but lets face it he's more likely to get better than worse. Yes oposition teams may adjust their defence but that usally means there are opportunities elsewhere for attack.

 

[Larksea]

The thing about sonny bill is that he was always going to have a big impact on the AB's attacking game, the main doubts were around if he could handle the level of defence required.

But his defence has really been spotless. Pretty impressive really.

And in ITM cup his long passing game and even a bit of kicking was on show and both of good quality, he must have worked really hard to produce the quality footy that's been n show in ITM and these last two games for the AB's.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

One thing I've noticed is just how much Conrad Smith does.

He's basically always the first player to make a tackle after a kick chase, whereas I never once saw SBW make a tackle except when he was forced to.

Likewise, Gear actually doesn't do a whole lot - he went missing for large periods whereas Toeava and Rokocoko go looking for work.

 

[admartian]

I was watching the match in a local pub with a Kiwi couple. I asked them who they would prefer in the mid-field for the World Cup, Sonny Bill or Nonu along with Smith. They both said Sonny Bill and Smith as Nonu is too hot and cold. To be fair they seemed to be a member of the Sonny Bill Williams fan club during the hole match - every time New Zealand had the ball they were screaming to pass it to Sonny Bill. What is the opinion of the Kiwi's in this forum? From the New Zealander's I've spoken to they believe Sonny Bill is the man of the moment.

He is.

Showing good transition from ITM rugby to Internationals.

His offload is the best in the world and here in NZ we love to keep the ball alive as long as we can so I'm a huge fan. There are some haters out there, not sure why after his performance against the Scots. I saw some one earlier in this topic saying "oh he wont be happy if he does it in the semi final etc.." Well I'm pretty sure Henry ,McCaw and Co. wouldnt be happy either and I cant see Sonny making those errors. Hes smart

That was me mate, and I stick by it.

Simply because, whether it pulls it off or not, it's silly given a situation like that. Again, it's not something that he can't learn, I just wouldn't want to see it in situations which require a bit more consideration.

Put it this way, if he continues to progress at htis rate, and if given the chance against teams like France, SA, Aus; and plays like that, then he gets starting nod.

But right now, Nonu has been proven to do more in pressure situations, against tough teams.

Again, not saying that SBW won't be able to that, it's just he hasn't proven it yet. It's just like anything really, we just need more information/evidence before we can say for sure; instead of making kneejerk, unfounded reactions.

 

[nickdnz]

He is.

Showing good transition from ITM rugby to Internationals.
That was me mate, and I stick by it.

Simply because, whether it pulls it off or not, it's silly given a situation like that. Again, it's not something that he can't learn, I just wouldn't want to see it in situations which require a bit more consideration.

Put it this way, if he continues to progress at htis rate, and if given the chance against teams like France, SA, Aus; and plays like that, then he gets starting nod.

But right now, Nonu has been proven to do more in pressure situations, against tough teams.

Again, not saying that SBW won't be able to that, it's just he hasn't proven it yet. It's just like anything really, we just need more information/evidence before we can say for sure; instead of making kneejerk, unfounded reactions.

Exactly right mate. The thing about Sonny Bill Williams so far, and I say this with out trying to sound bias, is he is made to look very good by the skill levels of those around him. His offloads, while he is probably the best in the world at them, they really require a lot of attention and skill from the surrounding players to anticipate them and keep going. There were two occasions against Scotland, where the players weren't expecting SBW to pop the pass, and it almost lead to knock ons by Gear and Toeava, fortunitly they both were skillful enough to hold on. In the Crusaders, he's lucky to have had Slade on the inside and Fruean on the outside of him, because other wise he'd be in trouble. No one is saying that he isn't good, but I think it's important he develops other aspects of his game, as eventually there will be teams who will predict his offloads and either try and rush the defence to put them under pressure, or target the the person receiving the pass which would cause a knock on. He's a big boy, I'm sure he'll find more to his game on the international scene, and from what I've seen so far, he's the first to admit he's a work in progress, something which impresses me.

I was watching the match in a local pub with a Kiwi couple. I asked them who they would prefer in the mid-field for the World Cup, Sonny Bill or Nonu along with Smith. They both said Sonny Bill and Smith as Nonu is too hot and cold. To be fair they seemed to be a member of the Sonny Bill Williams fan club during the hole match - every time New Zealand had the ball they were screaming to pass it to Sonny Bill. What is the opinion of the Kiwi's in this forum? From the New Zealander's I've spoken to they believe Sonny Bill is the man of the moment.

Good question. I personally think Nonu deserves to be the starting 12 going into the World Cup. Sonny Bill Williams had an impressive match against Scotland, but right now if we were playing South Africa or Australia in the final of the World Cup, Nonu would be my starting 12. In New Zealand, and most other players, it doesn't take much for people to jump onto the bandwagon of they guy that gets the most attention, and even the most solid performers over a very long time, are quickly forgotten about. It's much like Kahui in 2008, and people were saying "he's brilliant, Conrad Smith isn't as fantastic as him", and 2009 he was in my opinion New Zealand's best player.

Ma'a Nonu only a few months ago, broke the line of South Africa, trampling over John Smit, to pass Dagg the ball and give New Zealand the win. No one seems to remember of care. In my opinion, Sonny Bill Williams has looked good. His first very good game was against Scotland. His performances in the ITM Cup were all over hyped, and even now I cringe when he draws comparisons to Lomu. I'd still like to see him play more often, as right now he is a bit of a one trick poney, in the sence that for all the talk of his size, he actually hasn't broken the line that much.

They are two different players, that only draw a comparison because both of them are large. I think both of them need to be heavily envolved in the All Black setup, and I certainly wouldn't like to see Nonu outside the 22 at any point. I'll hold my judgement on how good SBW really is, until the Tri Nations. Right now Nonu still has the starting 12 jersey in my mind.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Good question. I personally think Nonu deserves to be the starting 12 going into the World Cup. Sonny Bill Williams had an impressive match against Scotland, but right now if we were playing South Africa or Australia in the final of the World Cup, Nonu would be my starting 12. In New Zealand, and most other players, it doesn't take much for people to jump onto the bandwagon of they guy that gets the most attention, and even the most solid performers over a very long time, are quickly forgotten about. It's much like Kahui in 2008, and people were saying "he's brilliant, Conrad Smith isn't as fantastic as him", and 2009 he was in my opinion New Zealand's best player.

Bit harsh, Kahui was fantastic, and it's difficult to say whether he would've ousted Smith had he stayed fit.

 

[nickdnz]

Bit harsh, Kahui was fantastic, and it's difficult to say whether he would've ousted Smith had he stayed fit.

It wasn't meant as a criticism of Kahui (although I'd still have picked Smith), it's more of a comment on how quick and fickle people are to get rid of the old for the new.

 

[gingergenius]

Scotland should be embarrassed. No one was expecting them to win, but the least you can expect from a side playing the All Blacks is physicality and commintment in defence. The Scots looked like thay were playing a different species with the fact that every contest they were second to the ABs in pace, strength and skill.

As for NZ... routine win, just about all this game says is that whoever they go for in the backs, Smith should always be wearing 13. SBW had a very good game, but people shouldn't forget all the great stuff Nonu does from 12. Either way, you've got two world class options at 12. Gear looks awesome, clearly he can translate form from super and itm rugby into tests.

Don't see the criticism of Muliaina - he's still the best 15 in the world and has been for 5 years. But either way, Toeava and Dagg are knocking, and are both good replacements.

 

[Larksea]

I'd still like to see gear get move involved in the game, he was pretty much unsighted for the 2nd half of the last two games. In his post game interview he looked like he'd hardly broken a sweat. I know Guildford doesn't have the same x-fator as Gear but guildford is always involved in the game, always getting his hands on the ball. He's relentless and hardly ever makes mistakes.

 

[Darwin]

I'd still like to see gear get move involved in the game, he was pretty much unsighted for the 2nd half of the last two games. In his post game interview he looked like he'd hardly broken a sweat. I know Guildford doesn't have the same x-fator as Gear but guildford is always involved in the game, always getting his hands on the ball. He's relentless and hardly ever makes mistakes.

You better hope that nickdnz doesn't know where you live - criticizing Hosea Gear is a beating offense

I do agree that he doesn't probably have the same work rate as the other NZ wings used this tour (Rococoko, Jane, Toeava), however Gear's work rate has improved immensely over the last year in my opinion. I have been watching him pretty closely on defense this tour, and have been very impressed with his urgency - his lack of urgency on defense used to be my biggest criticism of him. Gear will need to keep up his strong performances, as there is certainly plenty of competition on the wings...

I'm a bit of a fan of Guildford, however he was pretty poor during this years ITM Cup. However, I'm expecting Guildford to have a huge Super 15 season, and wouldn't be surprised at all to see him force his way into the RWC squad.

 

[admartian]

I think it'd be fine if we have one "Workhorse" wing (e.g. Roks or Jane) and a Gear on one side.

 

[nickdnz]

In fairness, I'd rather have a winger that made 40m every time he got the ball, every 5 minutes, than a winger whom makes 3m every time he gets the ball which is every minute. Rokocoko has improved his work rate really well, but since that, his positioning has meant he scores less tries, as he's not there to take the last pass, and therefore he gets criticized. You look at someone like Doug Howlett or Tom Varndell, Howlett did have a good work rate in chsing kicks, but he was always there to score the tries on the wing, which if a wingers gets too involved in the mid field, stops happening. Tom Varndell is very much the same, except he just finishes off the tries. Look at any classic Rokocoko try, and see where he scores them from.

I don't think wingers should be work horses. That's not why they're in he team. They are there to finish off the tries. If a great work rate was that important Lomu would hardly have made the team.