[2014 EOYT] Italy vs South Africa

[TRF_heineken]

Stadio Euganeo, Padova
22 November 2014, 16:00 CAT

Teams

Italy: 15 Andrea Masi, 14 Luke Mclean, 13 Michele Campagnaro, 12 Luca Morisi, 11 Leonardo Sarto, 10 Kelly Haimona, 9 Edoardo Gori, 8 Sergio Parisse (capitano), 7 Samuela Vunisa, 6 Alessandro Zanni, 5 Joshua Furno, 4 Quintin Geldenhuys, 3 Martin Castrogiovanni, 2 Leonardo Ghiraldini, 1 Matias Aguero

Substitutes: 16 Andrea Manici, 17 Alberto De Marchi, 18 Dario Chistolini, 19 Marco Bortolami, 20 Francesco Minto, 21 Guglielmo Palazzani, 22 Luciano Orquera, 23 Giulio Toniolatti.

South Africa:

15 Johan Goosen, 14 JP Pietersen, 13 Jan Serfontein, 12 Jean de Villiers (captain), 11 Bryan Habana, 10 Pat Lambie, 9 Cobus Reinach, 8 Duane Vermeulen, 7 Teboho "Oupa" Mohoje, 6 Marcell Coetzee, 5 Victor Matfield, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Coenie Oosthuizen, 2 Adriaan Strauss, 1 Trevor Nyakane

Substitutes: 16 Bismarck du Plessis, 17 Gurthrö Steenkamp, 18 Julian Redelinghuys, 19 Lood de Jager, 20 Nizaam Carr, 21 Francois Hougaard, 22 Handré Pollard, 23 Willie le Roux


Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant referees: Pascal Gauzère (France), Alexandre Ruiz (France)
Television match official: Gareth Simmonds (Wales)​

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Thanks for getting it started, Heineken.

Jannie du Plessis out and Ruan Dreyer called in. I'd be interested in seeing both Dreyer and Redelinghuys get time but I expect Meyer will go for Oosthuizen which I think is a mistake but at the end of the day Frans Malherbe and MvdM (and I expect JdB will walk back in when fit) are our first choice tightheads when fit so it's a bit of much over muchness in any case.

I expect to see a few new faces these last two tests with our Europe based players N/A for Wales I think HM needs to give the guys that are going to play Wales game now vs Italy. That'd see out Habana, Botha.. that's it I suppose. FLouw and Pienaar out injured and M Steyn, Vermaak, Steenkamp and Goosen not having featured in any case. TBH Steenkamp and Steyn should not have been included off the bat. I'm really hoping for an opening to see Kriel and Carr get chances but our backrow have been some of our best performers. Maybe some well earned rest for Vermeulen who has been playing a ton of rugby?

 

[TRF_heineken]

Thanks for getting it started, Heineken.

Jannie du Plessis out and Ruan Dreyer called in. I'd be interested in seeing both Dreyer and Redelinghuys get time but I expect Meyer will go for Oosthuizen which I think is a mistake but at the end of the day Frans Malherbe and MvdM (and I expect JdB will walk back in when fit) are our first choice tightheads when fit so it's a bit of much over muchness in any case.

I expect to see a few new faces these last two tests with our Europe based players N/A for Wales I think HM needs to give the guys that are going to play Wales game now vs Italy. That'd see out Habana, Botha.. that's it I suppose. FLouw and Pienaar out injured and M Steyn, Vermaak, Steenkamp and Goosen not having featured in any case. TBH Steenkamp and Steyn should not have been included off the bat. I'm really hoping for an opening to see Kriel and Carr get chances but our backrow have been some of our best performers. Maybe some well earned rest for Vermeulen who has been playing a ton of rugby?

Schalk and JPP also have to return to Japan. I think Schalla is already on his way there now.

I also expect a few changes. Here's what I think the team would look like:

1. Trevor Nyakane
2. Adriaan Strauss
3. Julian Redelinghuys
4. Eben Etzebeth
5. Victor Matfield
6. Marcel Coetzee
7. Jaco Kriel
8. Nizam Carr (Give Duane a deserved rest).

9. Cobus Reinach
10. Pat Lambie
11. Seabelo Senatla
12. JDV
13. Jan Serfontein
14. Cornal Hendricks
15. Willie Le Roux

16. Bismarck Du Plessis
17. Beast Mtawarira
18. Coenie Oosthuizen
19. Teboho Mohoje
20. ???
21. Francois Hougaard
22. Handre Pollard
23. Damian De Allende

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Schalk and JPP also have to return to Japan. I think Schalla is already on his way there now.

I also expect a few changes. Here's what I think the team would look like:

1. Trevor Nyakane
2. Adriaan Strauss
3. Julian Redelinghuys
4. Eben Etzebeth
5. Victor Matfield
6. Marcel Coetzee
7. Jaco Kriel
8. Nizam Carr (Give Duane a deserved rest).

9. Cobus Reinach
10. Pat Lambie
11. Seabelo Senatla
12. JDV
13. Jan Serfontein
14. Cornal Hendricks
15. Willie Le Roux

16. Bismarck Du Plessis
17. Beast Mtawarira
18. Coenie Oosthuizen
19. Teboho Mohoje
20. ???
21. Francois Hougaard
22. Handre Pollard
23. Damian De Allende

Totaly forgot about Japanese clubs employing those two. I would be over the moon to see something like that with maybe Lood de Jager coming in on the bench spot you have open and if Dreyer could come in to cover tighthead. Coenie I wouldn't mind playing at loose head though; Mtawarira has been a ghost.

 

[Big Ewis]

still no doubt about the outcome for this fixture. Italy have improved from previous form, quite a bit at that, but won't be nearly enough. They'd still need about 2 levels of improvement to claim this. They can't win this one...they're getting some fundamentals right, they've got a new good 10 now, some individuals are starting to show their class (Sarto, Campagnaro..) but they're just too raw, still. Just as they start putting some rhythm in their attacking, somebody spills it. They make a break, and surely enough the speeding culprit throws it astray...there's always something that keeps them back from crossing that bar to the top. Their sparse raw talent, Sergio Parisse, Haimona at 10, being at home...won't be enough to contain the Boks for eighty minutes. And I don't think their pack, a fine one potentially, will be up for this. Not right now. Scrum isn't what it used to be either...plus as if needed, the Boks have already got their wake-up call for this European tour and fall from the stars beating the All-Invincibles.
Comfortable Bok win, no doubt.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I fully expect a Bok win as well. I'll go for Bokke by 10 with the provisio that I can change 5 either way with both line-ups known.

Seems Jannie isn't the only casualty with Le Roux a possibility to sit out as well with picking up a knock to the face after sending reinach away for his try i the media reports are correct. Planetrugby also has an article out; http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_9567508,00.html

Not that we shouldn't win but we are likely to be without a mammoth amount of first choice and even 2nd and 3rd choice players in many positions though in many cases I welcome it. What I'd like to see (though I expect JdV, JPP, Mtawarira and Mohoje to start):

1. Trevor Nyakane (though would've prefered one of HvdM, SvdM or Thomas du Toit but not part of the squad)
2. Adriaan Strauss
3. Julian Redelinghuys
4. Eben Etzebeth
5. Victor Matfield
6. Marcel Coetzee
7. Jaco Kriel
8. Nizam Carr

9. Cobus Reinach
10. Pat Lambie
11. Seabelo Senatla
12. Damian de Allende
13. Jan Serfontein
14. Cornal Hendricks
15. Johan Goosen

16. Bismarck Du Plessis
17. Ruan Dreyer
18. Coenie Oosthuizen
19. Lood de Jager
20. Teboho Mohoje
21. Francois Hougaard
22. Handre Pollard
23. JP Pietersen

 

[TRF_heineken]

Okay so good news from the Bok camp. Jannie is out injured and will not play against Italy, and Willie Le Roux is fit and ready to after his scan on his cheekbone yesterday.
@stormer2010, you know we both forgot about a guy called Warren Whiteley...

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Okay so good news from the Bok camp. Jannie is out injured and will not play against Italy, and Willie Le Roux is fit and ready to after his scan on his cheekbone yesterday.
@stormer2010, you know we both forgot about a guy called Warren Whiteley...

Good news on all fronts!
- giving someone else a go at 3 (though sticking with oosthuizen is a step back IMO after dropping him from the squad in the first place rightly calling the conversion attempt a failure)
- Le Roux should be able to get some of his confidence back against Italy
- I can't believe we forgot about about Whiteley. Him, Kriel and Carr certainly aren't the typical Bok loose forward and sticking in one or two of them might surprise a few who havn't been following SR/CC if they can bring to test rugby what they can do at a lower level.

Italy is the perfect step up for our fringe players; not too huge a push but it's always disruptive getting 5+ new guys in and while it's good to give these guys a run it hardly ever is a good indication of what they're able to do in a full strngth side. But such a thing doesn't exist in rugby; a full strength side.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Good news on all fronts!
- giving someone else a go at 3 (though sticking with oosthuizen is a step back IMO after dropping him from the squad in the first place rightly calling the conversion attempt a failure)
- Le Roux should be able to get some of his confidence back against Italy
- I can't believe we forgot about about Whiteley. Him, Kriel and Carr certainly aren't the typical Bok loose forward and sticking in one or two of them might surprise a few who havn't been following SR/CC if they can bring to test rugby what they can do at a lower level.

Italy is the perfect step up for our fringe players; not too huge a push but it's always disruptive getting 5+ new guys in and while it's good to give these guys a run it hardly ever is a good indication of what they're able to do in a full strngth side. But such a thing doesn't exist in rugby; a full strength side.

Do you have any idea what the reactions would be when that loose trio plays together and knocks Italy on their ass? that is essentially our 3rd string loose trio combination...

And I think for the tighthead props, Italy is the perfect match to test them. Italy always have good props and scrum very well, and to throw a new prop into the cauldron due to injury, is just the thing the new lad needs.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I am looking forward to the Italy test as a test for our fringe players, which it will be and it could turn very close if the players don't pitch up with the right mentality and attitude to turn Italy over. We should certainly win but they'll be up in our faces on defence, trying to kill our all at the ruck and will be a test at scrum time for our new guys; Castro certainly got over on Ayerza last Saturday. It'll test us for sure. But, like you mention, backrow is not an area of concern for us. That is the one area where we could field our 5th string trio and any one of them could conceivably have a MotM performance, I mean we aren't even talking about the guys in Europe (Stander et al or even playing for other countries; Le Roux, Claassen, Diack), the injured (Spies, Louw, Alberts, Botha, Kolisi) or the likes of Brussow, Botes, J Potgieter and the many who just don't get a look in for no other reason than we are deep as all hell in the backrow.

Edit: In other news, Jerome Garces has been appointed the head referee; http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Springboks/French-referee-for-Italy-v-Boks-20141118

Funny how Sport24 say 'French ref' rather than just Jerome Garces. It is true they've been making life difficult for us (Poite in particular!). Part of me feels it's their way of getting back at us for Joubert's (mis)handling of the 2011RWC final, the less paranoid part tells me French referees aren't overly strict at the all-important breakdown and opposition teams tend to take full advantage of that while we tend to go at the rucks 1 at a time and don't look to push the limits of the law as much.

 

[oldprussians]

Methinks you might find this game harder than you think

Italy are small margins away from being a great team... They are mentally losers..

On paper and on history you will win this by 5 trys

But if this becomes the day they stop doing stupid knock ons in attack and don't waste overlaps ect..

And yes you could argue in Brunel's 1st and definitely 2nd year we thought that had happened.. and then the slip...

We shall see.

 

[Hap]

Good point, oldie.
But let's get back on the Earth

Anyway, seriously, I can see Italy to stay close to SA in the first half, fighting in defense and in the breakdown. Second half, when SA will grow up in pace and intensity there won't be game anymore. SA by 15/20.

You know, with SA at full potential there is no hope for us but, if you exceed with young players under test well, you are doubling our 0,1% of chances to an extraordinary 0,2% :declare:

We didn't beat France and Ireland until we've beaten, so, never say never

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

South Africa

15 Johan Goosen, 14 JP Pietersen, 13 Jan Serfontein, 12 Jean de Villiers (captain), 11 Bryan Habana, 10 Pat Lambie, 9 Cobus Reinach, 8 Duane Vermeulen, 7 Teboho "Oupa" Mohoje, 6 Marcell Coetzee, 5 Victor Matfield, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Coenie Oosthuizen, 2 Adriaan Strauss, 1 Trevor Nyakane

Substitutes: 16 Bismarck du Plessis, 17 Gurthrö Steenkamp, 18 Julian Redelinghuys, 19 Lood de Jager, 20 Nizaam Carr, 21 Francois Hougaard, 22 Handré Pollard, 23 Willie le Roux

Everything considered I like the line-up apart from the props; Oosthuizen at 3 and Steenkamp on the bench. Seriously! Happy for Carr to get his debut though I would've loved Kriel in there as well, with maybe Mohoje at lock rather. Will be interesting to see Goosen at 15 for SA. He has certainly looked solid enough there for Racing.

 

[Hap]

Ok, that's the backline we need to defeat SA:

9. James "Logan" Howlett (no problem getting the ball from the breakdown at all);
10. Tony Stark (he's a smart guy);
11. Thor di Asgard (first parallel-world imported player);
12. Bruce Banner (hope he gets angry);
13. Steve Rogers (nice guy, always good having him in XV);
14. Peter Parker (almost flies on the sideline);
15. Clint Burton (tremendous at shooting penalties);

Ok, joking apart, very good XV for Springboks. Almost impossible to find a weak point.

Speaking as an ignorant: isn't this the right time to find a good alternative to De Villiers at 12? I know it's the captain and still a strong player but who's in your opinion next Springbok 12?
We, as Italy, are having the same "problem" with Parisse...

I used to follow Super XV some years ago and supported Cheetahs so I'm very happy to see Goosen back at Test Level. I don't know Pollard very well so I won't judge the situation but I clearly remember that I was sure that Goosen would have become the new Springbok 10 in a few time. Really unlucky with his injuries...

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Yes, @Hap, Jean de Villiers probably is on a free ride at the moment due to being captain. As for who might slot in at 12 for us post RWC 2015.. difficult question;

Jan Serfontein has played at 12 mostly and might revert back.
Damian de Allende is in this squad and plays at 12 and wing for the Stormers.
Francois Steyn might get things sorted out with the SARU and make himself avaiable for selection again; still quite young.
Burger Odendaal is a youngster at the Bulls that has been really impressive in this year's Currie Cup. If he can keep it up, Serfontein might be forced to play at 13 for the Bulls as well as the Springbokke.
Some people have talked about playing Handre Pollard at 12 who isn't a small lad with Lambie at 10 but I'd be appalled if this was the case.
Andre Esterhuysen is a center/flank and played at 12 for the Junior Bokke. I'm uncertain if the Sharks plan on using him there though with Frans Steyn available to them.

Those would be my predictions of most likely options in the near future.

Goosen truly was unlucky with injuries and got held up at the Cheetahs due to some inconsistencies in his game after coming back from injury and the Cheetahs prefering to ave him on the bench rather. His moving to France is very understandable and at 15 he is a similar enough player to Le Roux as SA are looking to keep a 'play making' 15 so I'm glad for him as Pollard and Lambie have done enough with their chances to warrant being SA's 1st and 2nd choice flyhalves.

Really looking forward to this match and despite your joke above, I too can really see Italy up in our faces.

 

[Big Ewis]

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Not sure what the above is for, Big Uous but if it is questioning Nyakane's absence them I agree, he is a very handy loose head and I'd have him ahead of Steenkamp any day of the week both ITO pottential and current ability.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Not sure what the above is for, Big Uous but if it is questioning Nyakane's absence them I agree, he is a very handy loose head and I'd have him ahead of Steenkamp any day of the week both ITO pottential and current ability.

But he's starting!!

Beast is having a rest

 

[Hap]

@TRF_stormer2010 thanks for your answer
F.Steyn remembers me the situation we have with our player Masi. Too many spots covered in career and never truly specialized in anyone. Good at everything, more or less, but best in nothing (except powerful kicking for Frans). Is it or am I wrong?
I remember him at 2007 RWC and compared to him nowdays, thinking what he could have been potentially, it's a little bit disappointing.


Anyway, for Italy, today has been declared that Barbieri and Allan are released to their clubs, in order to play with them this weekwend.
That's a bit frustrating for Allan. Never seen the pitch in this serie. Maybe he's really out of shape because I really don't understand why Brunel (who strongly wanted him to play for Azzurri since last year) didn't give him not even a single minute in 3 games.
I think it's clear that our flyhalf at next 6N will be Haimona.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

But he's starting!!

Beast is having a rest

I see Sport24 have updated their line-up. I'll do the same here. Guess I was too quick. Well then that's at least something and explains Steenkamp on the bench while I'd have loved Schalk van der Merwe on the bench to cover loose head.

@TRF_stormer2010 thanks for your answer
F.Steyn remembers me the situation we have with our player Masi. Too many spots covered in career and never truly specialized in anyone. Good at everything, more or less, but best in nothing (except powerful kicking for Frans). Is it or am I wrong?
I remember him at 2007 RWC and compared to him nowdays, thinking what he could have been potentially, it's a little bit disappointing.


Anyway, for Italy, today has been declared that Barbieri and Allan are released to their clubs, in order to play with them this weekwend.
That's a bit frustrating for Allan. Never seen the pitch in this serie. Maybe he's really out of shape because I really don't understand why Brunel (who strongly wanted him to play for Azzurri since last year) didn't give him not even a single minute in 3 games.
I think it's clear that our flyhalf at next 6N will be Haimona.

You're more than welcome, Hap. And welcome to the forum by the way; I see you have racked up 36 posts already but I've missed you coming on here previously. Frans Steyn has been playing center, fullback and flyhalf and I totally agree it has effected him but I was alluding to him and SARU having had a falling out over money matters the details of which remain unclear. I wouldn't mind having him in at 12 as he is solid in defense, can handle a ball as well as take it up and his boot is just an extra. His maturity/mentality is questionable though; not refering to the money thing here as I don't know the details but in tricky situations he always gets that frown and start moaning and you can just see he isn't focussed.

Haimona certainly seems at first glance like the type of guy that can get Italy forward and make the best out of the work of what has always been a very good pack from what little I've seen of him (admittedly only the game against Argentina). What are your thoughts on him if I might ask? Will keep an eye on him this game.