[2014 EOYT] England vs New Zealand

[nickdnz]

If Julian Savea scores another try against England he'll overtake Lomu as having scored more tries against England than any other winger. That would be exciting. He still needs another two tries to be on 31 tries in 31 tests.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

If Julian Savea scores another try against England he'll overtake Lomu as having scored more tries against England than any other winger. That would be exciting. He still needs another two tries to be on 31 tries in 31 tests.

He should have started vs the USA though grabbing 2 for the time he was on certainly does help. I wish SA would send semi B teams to play countries like the USA, Canada and Japan. It's just a win-win on so many levels.

 

[goodNumber10]

He should have started vs the USA though grabbing 2 for the time he was on certainly does help. I wish SA would send semi B teams to play countries like the USA, Canada and Japan. It's just a win-win on so many levels.

It would be good but let's not brush over the fact the AB's did not do it for any other reason than money.

For SA to do the same they probably would need a similar basket with major US interests/looking to break the US market.

 

[nickdnz]

It would be good but let's not brush over the fact the AB's did not do it for any other reason than money.

For SA to do the same they probably would need a similar basket with major US interests/looking to break the US market.

Mhmm, we certainly wouldn't want to forget that!

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

It would be good but let's not brush over the fact the AB's did not do it for any other reason than money.

For SA to do the same they probably would need a similar basket with major US interests/looking to break the US market.

That may be but it is still a win for fans from both nations (and the neytral spectator).

 

[glawsfan]

Looking forward to this game. Idealy England would have prefered an easier start and had a couple of games under their belt before taking on NZ. I can see it being quite close to about 60 minutes and then NZ showing their class and pulling away. It's important to me that we give the players starting on Saturday have the whole Autumn Internationals to prove themselves and let combinations gel. Unless someone has a shocker or there is an obvious better player waiting to come back into the team i don't see the need to make constant changes which we have in the past.

 

[RyotoTheDragon]

Great insight from the one eyed kiwi. This Saturday your hero average winger Savea will be danced about like a biatch by the England Fijian born excitement dynamite.

haha these fijians should be on dancing with the stars with their soft like running. Cant wait to see Savea run through this fijian fruit cake, ill bring memories back of when Lomu was throwing them into the stands haha

vinaka brother

 

[Every Time Ref]

Couple of reasons:

He's got an excellent and accurate short passing game and runs straight, and that is suited to the 13 channel. Secondly he's not as ball greedy and has excellent decision making skills - that will benefit from him playing in the wider channel - so I wouldn't be surprised if we see the back three get a bit more ball.

He's not as slow as people think - he doesn't have great top end speed but his first 5 metres or so are quick enough to let him drift off the pass (see his try against the all blacks) and that works better at 13 where he'll have more space.

He'll probably benefit more form carrying the ball in less traffic, running a hard under's line from 13 will at least see him set some targets - he won't split the line like Tuilagi/Burrell bu we don't have them and no one else runs those hard lines they do, and form 13 he's less likely to be smashing it into two or three defenders.

Good analysis, enough to convince me that maybe his attack is underrated - I can see if used correctly he could be a handy attacking weapon, and maybe we need a playmaker to bring that out of him (he's spent so much time outside Farrell, maybe that makes him look bad). However, I'm still not convinced it's what we need in the 13 channel in an international. I don't specifically disagree with any of this but my problem is it doesn't sound like anything that's going to put the ****s up Conrad Smith - it all just looks like basic requirements for a journeyman centre. He can run a decent unders line but he's not a big ball carrier); he's got one type of passing nailed down (but he's not a distributor); he isn't greedy and he makes good decisions (but he's not a playmaker); he can hit it up and recycle (but he's not a linebreaker).

None of these, for me, outweigh the arguments for playing him at twelve: 1) We know he can provide a focal point narrow, hit up, recycle quickly and get runners coming round the corner; 2) he's far more used to the position and both he and we know what he can do there, the lines and positioning are natural to him as it's where he plays week in week out; 3) it allows someone with real gamebreaking skills (such as JJ) to play at thirteen.

For me that's the crux of it I guess, an international thirteen has to offer something beyond the call of duty in attack. He won't break the line on the inside of the defender or take him on the outside, he won't hold up too many defenders worried that he might make the big break, he won't give a gorgeous pass putting an outside back through.

It's an interesting discussion though, there's a lot of aspects to centre play which makes it fascinating. It really is the king of positions! I've been shunted across all the backline positions throughout my playing life, as amateur rugby demands, but my number one, the real position is thirteen, even as I get slower.

I'll be keeping a close eye on BB from the South stand on Saturday, looking out for everything you mentioned and (hopefully) ready to eat humble pie if he has a stormer...

 

[Every Time Ref]

D'oh! Don't know how I forgot about Ford :lol:

On a slight tangent: Bath really don't produce much do they? Their first choice 23 can't have many academy guys in, can it? Just Devoto?

To back up ratsapprentice, the academy was invested in and vastly improved relatively recently, it takes some time for it to bear fruit and more are coming through now - Ewels is a prime example, had an excellent (in the circumstances) debut out of position against Toulouse then captained the first team the following week.

Also, it's not like we've been buying in ready made premiership class players. There are several examples of players in the Bath squad who have become the players they are today under the Bath coaching system, even if they weren't identified and brought through here - Ford, Eastmond, Joseph ,Attwood, there are even signs that we might be the first club in years to get something decent out of Henson...

 

[goodNumber10]

Good analysis, enough to convince me that maybe his attack is underrated - I can see if used correctly he could be a handy attacking weapon, and maybe we need a playmaker to bring that out of him (he's spent so much time outside Farrell, maybe that makes him look bad). However, I'm still not convinced it's what we need in the 13 channel in an international. I don't specifically disagree with any of this but my problem is it doesn't sound like anything that's going to put the ****s up Conrad Smith - it all just looks like basic requirements for a journeyman centre. He can run a decent unders line but he's not a big ball carrier); he's got one type of passing nailed down (but he's not a distributor); he isn't greedy and he makes good decisions (but he's not a playmaker); he can hit it up and recycle (but he's not a linebreaker).

None of these, for me, outweigh the arguments for playing him at twelve: 1) We know he can provide a focal point narrow, hit up, recycle quickly and get runners coming round the corner; 2) he's far more used to the position and both he and we know what he can do there, the lines and positioning are natural to him as it's where he plays week in week out; 3) it allows someone with real gamebreaking skills (such as JJ) to play at thirteen.

For me that's the crux of it I guess, an international thirteen has to offer something beyond the call of duty in attack. He won't break the line on the inside of the defender or take him on the outside, he won't hold up too many defenders worried that he might make the big break, he won't give a gorgeous pass putting an outside back through.

It's an interesting discussion though, there's a lot of aspects to centre play which makes it fascinating. It really is the king of positions! I've been shunted across all the backline positions throughout my playing life, as amateur rugby demands, but my number one, the real position is thirteen, even as I get slower.

I'll be keeping a close eye on BB from the South stand on Saturday, looking out for everything you mentioned and (hopefully) ready to eat humble pie if he has a stormer...

I loved playing 13, if you play outside a 10 who has a pass good enough to hit you on that drift, giving you time to move the ball across and get your fend up. great feeling!

Just to be clear on Barritt, if we had Tuilagi or Burrell he'd not get a look in at 13 i think, but with what's available this weekend i think him at 13 with Eastmond at 12 is a pretty decent pairing, fingers crossed they can deliver.

 

[Peat]

To back up ratsapprentice, the academy was invested in and vastly improved relatively recently, it takes some time for it to bear fruit and more are coming through now - Ewels is a prime example, had an excellent (in the circumstances) debut out of position against Toulouse then captained the first team the following week.

Also, it's not like we've been buying in ready made premiership class players. There are several examples of players in the Bath squad who have become the players they are today under the Bath coaching system, even if they weren't identified and brought through here - Ford, Eastmond, Joseph ,Attwood, there are even signs that we might be the first club in years to get something decent out of Henson...

Joseph and Attwood were full England internationals; Ford might have been if he hadn't missed a Summer tour to bulk up. Not saying Bath haven't improved these players but to say they weren't ready made Premiership class players would be untrue.

Not slagging off Bath; most of the big clubs take a lot of nearly-there prospects from elsewhere and develop them the rest of the way, most clubs have at some point neglected their academy due to funds; nothing wrong with that. But as a point of intellectual curiousity, Bath's recent player production has been unimpressive, although there's good signs its picking up again.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I agree with Peat Attwood was already capped (although did drop off again), Ford was already the complete player and would have been capped in SA if cockers hadn't wanted he to focus on his conditioning during the off season (which was needed) and Joesph was starting every week for Irish and was already capped and looking very good, Watson is similar. So don't try and claim that Bath has developed them that much.

Think your giving Bath coaching setup way to much credit Every Time Ref, The best thing they have done is built a backline with players who play the similar game to each other.

 

[goodNumber10]

attwoods fiancee gave birth last night - so in theory, as long as post birth is all ok, he will be back in camp tomorrow.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>A huge congratulations to <a href="https://twitter.com/Dmjattwood">@Dmjattwood</a> &amp; his fiancé <a href="https://twitter.com/briewhelan">@briewhelan</a> on the birth of their baby girl last night <a href="http://t.co/aFMaOYCoot">pic.twitter.com/aFMaOYCoot</a></p>&mdash; England Rugby (@EnglandRugby) <a href="https://twitter.com/EnglandRugby/status/529947103074983936">November 5, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Every Time Ref]

I agree with Peat Attwood was already capped (although did drop off again), Ford was already the complete player and would have been capped in SA if cockers hadn't wanted he to focus on his conditioning during the off season (which was needed) and Joesph was starting every week for Irish and was already capped and looking very good, Watson is similar. So don't try and claim that Bath has developed them that much.

Think your giving Bath coaching setup way to much credit Every Time Ref, The best thing they have done is built a backline with players who play the similar game to each other.

Maybe didn't pick the best examples, but I wasn't trying to claim none of those players were premiership standard before Bath, just that they'd improved their games under the coaching team there. Ford for example was already good but he wasn't England good, he wasn't arguably-best-ten-in-the-premiership good. Eastmond has learnt his entire union trade there and is now up there with the best in the country in his position. There are other examples

Don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming we haven't Saracensed it by buying in class players - the JJ-Watson double whammy on Irish was particularly bad / good! But I'm saying we have improved many these players, whether it's in terms of individual skills or putting them in a system together which gets the best out of them. I'd argue David Wilson is a better tighthead than he was 1-2 years ago (although you maybe you'd credit the England coaches with that), Roko has gone from amateur to probably starting against NZ in 18 months.

Plus of course there's Sam Burgess, who we have miraculously transformed into the Saviour Of English Rugby Union before he's even had a single contact training session. That's coaching!

I loved playing 13, if you play outside a 10 who has a pass good enough to hit you on that drift, giving you time to move the ball across and get your fend up. great feeling!

That might be the best feeling in rugby, drift outwards sharply, twelve is watching twelve, thirteen's looking in waiting to see what happens, by the time he's realised it's too late, I've taken the flat ball on my hip with my feet already ahead of the gainline, I'm through and the wing's in nomansland.

Actually my favourite try ever was popping up at the 12 position in phase play, ten was going for that fast flat miss but I could see it was the wrong option as the hole was just inside me. I headed in towards the pass, plucked it out the air at full pace (stung a bit) and went through, I have never wrongfooted a defence that much.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I somehow missed that Joseph was released back to Bath along with the others.
Bit disappointed about that.
I think the 12. Eastmond 13. Barritt deal could work, but its nonetheless concerning to not have a proper 13 in the squad.

I suppose May can play there?

 

[goodNumber10]

That might be the best feeling in rugby, drift outwards sharply, twelve is watching twelve, thirteen's looking in waiting to see what happens, by the time he's realised it's too late, I've taken the flat ball on my hip with my feet already ahead of the gainline, I'm through and the wing's in nomansland.

haha! poetry!

 

[TheSaffycen]

Maybe didn't pick the best examples, but I wasn't trying to claim none of those players were premiership standard before Bath, just that they'd improved their games under the coaching team there. Ford for example was already good but he wasn't England good, he wasn't arguably-best-ten-in-the-premiership good. Eastmond has learnt his entire union trade there and is now up there with the best in the country in his position. There are other examples

Don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming we haven't Saracensed it by buying in class players - the JJ-Watson double whammy on Irish was particularly bad / good! But I'm saying we .

You just had to go there didn't you We produce alot more than a lot of big teams. When 2016 comes around and you have Kruis, Itoje, Farrell, George and Spencer all playing for England i'll remember this. From now on ETR we aren't friends, and to quote the lovely Bricktop.......
Do you know what "nemesis" means? A righteous infliction of retribution manifested by an appropriate agent. Personified in this case by an 'orrible ****... me

 

[Peat]

Plus of course there's Sam Burgess, who we have miraculously transformed into the Saviour Of English Rugby Union before he's even had a single contact training session. That's coaching!

:lol: Touche, fair play, no real argument with what you've said there - Bath have taken those players and made them better. Will be interesting to see how guys like Ewels and Jennings get on though.

You just had to go there didn't you We produce alot more than a lot of big teams. When 2016 comes around and you have Kruis, Itoje, Farrell, George and Spencer all playing for England i'll remember this. From now on ETR we aren't friends, and to quote the lovely Bricktop.......
Do you know what "nemesis" means? A righteous infliction of retribution manifested by an appropriate agent. Personified in this case by an 'orrible ****... me

Spencer came from Exeter by way of Cambridge iirc. Surprised you didn't throw in Tompkins, Fraser and Earle as well

Although again, interesting to see how those guys go. Seems a lot of top of the league teams start finding it difficult to feed through their youngsters.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Interesting that you picked Jennings out... Any particular reason?

 

[Peat]

Interesting that you picked Jennings out... Any particular reason?

In the England U20s and have read elsewhere that he's rated.

Maybe I should have posted up the England U20 squad list back when it was released, so we could all revel in our semi-ignorance.