[2014 EOYT] England vs New Zealand

[j'nuh]

although I understand there are injuries in there, I've got to say: not a terribly exciting group (at all) but I'll bet ya England does well with relatively little on paper...AGAIN. As opposed (if anything were ever opposed.. gosh !!) to France who, themselves having quite a list of broken parts, have a ton of excitement on paper but WILL, you can rest assured, oh lawdy you can even go to bed on it right now and sleep tight and suck the hell out of that thumb - play considerably, in fact alarmingly below their optimum.

Not exciting at all? How much English rugby do you actually watch? Where have you even come up with that?

Some people have this really odd view of England that they are a sum-better-than-parts type and there's little recognition for the fact that we do actually have some fantastic players. I think it's because of a lack of exposure. Lancaster had to establish a squad with very little international experience and make them into stars. A good example, Robshaw has 28 caps now, but should have had 50 or so, had Johnson picked him when he became one of the form flankers in England. Even though he's been the second most consistent flanker in Europe (after SOB over the last three years, he still gets none of the recognition. Well, if Warburton is a star and Dusautoir is a star and Lydiate is a star, then Robshaw is bloody well a star.

 

[Big Ewis]

What are you on about?
Or has your joke gone way over my head?

Brookes, Lawes, Binny, Morgan, Care, Ford, Roko, May, Watson, Eastmond, Brown....England has way more exciting/highlight reel players than France do.

no joke there, no. Well you seem to think those guys are all really exciting if you think they're in fact "way more" than France, so why would I bother making my point ? Eastmond and Brown are good, that Fijian dude looks exciting...well it's good if you feel there's excitement there dude, not going to make a case they're not.

Not exciting at all? How much English rugby do you actually watch? Where have you even come up with that?

Some people have this really odd view of England that they are a sum-better-than-parts type and there's little recognition for the fact that we do actually have some fantastic players.

good doesn't mean exciting. Nobody's questioning England have some really good players.

 

[Flyingdolphins]

I think Mr Big probably means that on paper the injury lists seems to be the reasons these squad was selected. I mean in terms of excitement the kiwis thinks Jane is more exciting than Masaga so obviously they don't know what excitement means. And if they don't I would imagine the French have even less imagination especially picking their outside centre

 

[j'nuh]

good doesn't mean exciting. Nobody's questioning England have some really good players.

"I don't know who these players are so they must not be exciting."

Really, how many games of Ford/Eastmond/May/Rokoduguni/Watson have you actually seen, to actually comment on?

And you will have seen Care and Brown... how could you possibly say these players are not exciting?

Vunipola and Morgan? The heftiest carrying 8s in Europe?

Lawes? One of the rare locks in the world that has a highlight reel that would appeal to the non-union fan?

 

[donmcdazzle]

I think first looks can be deceiving because Cruden does not actually operate as a first receiver nearly as often as Carter and Barrett do.

IMO carter has re-established himself as #1, Barrett is now next in the pecking order. Cruden has had an average year, his kicking is in question once again and combined with missing the boat he's lucky he's still ahead of Slade.

Also noteworthy is that Barrett seemed to carry an ankle injury through TRC which clearly hampered him at times.

IMO the fact they called Slade in and not a winger puts Crudens position in even more question. Slade and Tom Taylor offer much more versatility looking at a WC squad situation. It's worth noting that Tom Taylor absolutely took the couple of chances he got to play test footy.

wait and see I guess. Looking at how WC finals games play out I think having NZ's best goal kicker in the mix is a smart option.

Carter has re-established himself after 30mins against USA? I'm obviously a huge Carter fan but he will be getting picked on past deeds and the fact he is finally fit, he has done zero on the field to re-establish himself, other than proving he is still a great kicker.

In what way has Cruden had an average year? He was average in the first test against Aus (as was the whole team), was outstanding against Australia at Eden Park, good against SA (did the cross kick for McCaw's decisive try). He was the first choice 10 quite clearly until the night out debacle. In his absence Barrett led us to a loss and a near loss against decent teams with the back line sputtering in both games. How has he ousted Cruden? He hasn't had one commanding game from 10 like Cruden has for the AB's.

I think Mr Big probably means that on paper the injury lists seems to be the reasons these squad was selected. I mean in terms of excitement the kiwis thinks Jane is more exciting than Masaga so obviously they don't know what excitement means. And if they don't I would imagine the French have even less imagination especially picking their outside centre

But neither are Fijian so they must both be rubbish.

 

[Flyingdolphins]

But neither are Fijian so they must both be rubbish.

Great insight from the one eyed kiwi. This Saturday your hero average winger Savea will be danced about like a biatch by the England Fijian born excitement dynamite.

 

[donmcdazzle]

Great insight from the one eyed kiwi. This Saturday your hero average winger Savea will be danced about like a biatch by the England Fijian born excitement dynamite.

Does it irk you that the most exciting, elusive and effective attacking player ever (Christian Cullen) was a white NZer? He was better at 7s and XVs than anyone from Fiji, that must hurt huh?

 

[Flyingdolphins]

Does it irk you that the most exciting, elusive and effective attacking player ever (Christian Cullen) was a white NZer? He was better at 7s and XVs than anyone from Fiji, that must hurt huh?

Hehe awww bless you. Cullen was okay. But excitement in sevens hmmm Serevi, Ryder, Delasau, Viriviri and Caucau. 15s on form Caucau eats Cullen for breakfast like how he did with Rokocoko and Howlett and pretty much every Kiwi ever including the one direction Lomu. It's okay to dream though ey.

 

[Darwin]

Carter has re-established himself after 30mins against USA? I'm obviously a huge Carter fan but he will be getting picked on past deeds and the fact he is finally fit, he has done zero on the field to re-establish himself, other than proving he is still a great kicker.

In what way has Cruden had an average year? He was average in the first test against Aus (as was the whole team), was outstanding against Australia at Eden Park, good against SA (did the cross kick for McCaw's decisive try). He was the first choice 10 quite clearly until the night out debacle. In his absence Barrett led us to a loss and a near loss against decent teams with the back line sputtering in both games. How has he ousted Cruden? He hasn't had one commanding game from 10 like Cruden has for the AB's.

Cruden is no Stephen Donald though......

 

[Big Ewis]

"I don't know who these players are so they must not be exciting."

Really, how many games of Ford/Eastmond/May/Rokoduguni/Watson have you actually seen, to actually comment on?

And you will have seen Care and Brown... how could you possibly say these players are not exciting?

Vunipola and Morgan? The heftiest carrying 8s in Europe?

Lawes? One of the rare locks in the world that has a highlight reel that would appeal to the non-union fan?

OK man, you're right.

 

[donmcdazzle]

Hehe awww bless you. Cullen was okay. But excitement in sevens hmmm Serevi, Ryder, Delasau, Viriviri and Caucau. 15s on form Caucau eats Cullen for breakfast like how he did with Rokocoko and Howlett and pretty much every Kiwi ever including the one direction Lomu. It's okay to dream though ey.

Haha ok mate, well done.

 

[Flyingdolphins]

Haha ok mate, well done.

You dick go do some work stop wasting your companies time and Internet

 

[j'nuh]

Interesting breakdown of numbers:
Bath - 7
Sarries; Quins - 4
Saints - 3
Glos - 2
Wasps; Falcons; Tigers - 1
Exeter; Sale; Irish; Welsh - 0

It wasn't that long ago that Wilson was the only Bath representative in the whole England wider squad. And I wonder when the last time Tigers only contributed one player to an England 23 was.

 

[Flyingdolphins]

I was thinking that too. Changing times I suppose.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Interesting breakdown of numbers:
Bath - 7
Sarries; Quins - 4
Saints - 3
Glos - 2
Wasps; Falcons; Tigers - 1
Exeter; Sale; Irish; Welsh - 0

It wasn't that long ago that Wilson was the only Bath representative in the whole England wider squad. And I wonder when the last time Tigers only contributed one player to an England 23 was.

To take it even further:
Academy/First Pro Club:
Bath - 3
Harlequins - 3
Worcester - 3
Gloucester - 2
Leeds - 2
Newcastle - 2
Saracens - 2
Leicester - 1
London Irish - 1
Natal Sharks - 1
Saints - 1
Scarlets - 1
Wasps - 1

 

[Peat]

To take it even further:
Academy/First Pro Club:
Bath - 3
Harlequins - 3
Worcester - 3
Gloucester - 2
Leeds - 2
Newcastle - 2
Saracens - 2
Leicester - 1
London Irish - 1
Natal Sharks - 1
Saints - 1
Scarlets - 1
Wasps - 1

Bath 2, Leicester 2 - Ford's first pro club was Leicester.

Going by academy, Bath have none.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

D'oh! Don't know how I forgot about Ford :lol:

On a slight tangent: Bath really don't produce much do they? Their first choice 23 can't have many academy guys in, can it? Just Devoto?

 

[Peat]

Is Devoto even in their first choice 23? Uhm. Nathan Catt is home produced, right? Banahan probably counts as well. But in any case, no, they haven't been productive. Plenty in the new England u20 squad if memory serves.

Worcester fans must spend a lot of time doped up on morphine and listening to Leonard Cohen while considering what might have been.

 

[Kapa O Pango]

Roko marking Savea, this is going to be interesting to watch.

 

[ratsapprentice]

14 of the LV cup team that started against LW are Bath academy products.
Freddie Burns was poached from the Bath academy.
Nick Abendanon was also a product.

Current first team players from the academy:

Matt Banahan
Chris Cook
Guy Mercer
Kane Palma-Newport
Nathan Catt
Olly Woodburn
Ben Williams (constantly injured)
Ollie Devoto
Tom Dunn

Bath didn't really have enough cash to compete with the local academies until Bruce came in AFAIK.
So it's only now starting to churn players out.