[2014 EOYT] England vs New Zealand

[nickdnz]

I can name a handful of referees that have had worse games recently. Think your post is a bit OTT mind. Easy to have a pop at the ref. He wasn't great for the bits I checked in but he was consistent in what he gave.

But he wasn't. He awarded yellow cards against the All Blacks against the advice of the TMO who said he disagreed with his call, he didn't bother getting the number of the Englishmen who stopped a certain try being scored (which could have been a yellow and penalty try) yet he awards both a yellow card for an offence which Hartley instigated, and a penalty try for a scrum - despite not awarding penalties for a dominant All Black scrum in the first half. He was anything but consistent. I'm not one for refereeing bashing in general - you are welcome to check the last matches we have lost to prove I don't. But this was simply horrific. How is a ball on the ground that is stationary awarded a knock on when Whitelock dived on it? Like he would literally have to have knocked it forward by scooping it off the ground and flinging it forward. Ughh, amazing performance by Owen, spectacular.

 

[admartian]

Tbh I think that's quite harsh on England's defence . You had 80 odd possession for the second half and won the half by just 6 points . Care and Farrell didn't do enough to relieve the pressure on the forwards

No doubt was good D. But we did also butcher some of those chances.

Was not on today the ABs.

 

[Maverick1987]

No doubt was good D. But we did also butcher some of those chances.

Was not on today the ABs.

Agreed but we messed up at least 2 chances aswell. Imagine if we had scored that and won then you would have something to complain about

 

[Groundhog]

Owens' influence is being wildly overstated. I watched a lot of this quite bored, but picked up a rake of things that Owens missed for England too. He had a bad reffing performance, no doubt, made it a frustrating and choppy game to watch, but it wasn't particularly one eyed. People are bemoaning the re-check. Ok, fair enough, but I imagine that if Owens was sure, he wouldn't have gone to the TMO. I'd say it was a case of blowing for the try before he himself was absolutely sure about it. End of the day, it was a try, never going to be anything different. No skin off anyones nose.
Also I think both Hartley and Coles were stupid in the Yellow incident, but Coles' stupidity was dangerous and could have injured someone. No pity for him.

 

[Peat]

I disagree. Other than the Brown drop in the first half, I don't think finishing was necessarily the problem. We simply didn't get near their line enough for that to be the issue. Plus, the ABs missed at least as many opportunities as we did. Had both teams taken all of their opportunities, I think the scoreline would have been much greater in the ABs favour.

Our problem was the breakdown, kicking game and aerial game. Too many penalties and lost ball at the breakdown. It's shown a big frailty in our pack imo. When you don't have Launchbury, Cole and Lawes available, it becomes more of a problem that you don't have a fetcher in the backrow imo. Would have been a great game for Kvesic. Not sure what to do about the ball lost at the breakdown. Breakdown needs to be focused on in training for next week. The kicking game didn't make enough meters and whilst the chasing was good, our physicality in the air was not. (The AB backline is a lot bigger than our own, so we were always going to lose that really, and should have worked around it.) Our kicking into space wasn't good enough either.

So for me, Ford starts next week and I'd look at bringing Kvesic in.

I should have said cutting edge. The move leading up to Farrell's missed drop was fairly waah. Don't think breakdown was a major issue, we caused them a few issues, they caused us a few issues.

Agreed that kicking was also a big issue. No other team in the world seems to target the kick-off like NZ, quite incredible how no one else tries to do it.

 

[admartian]

Agreed but we messed up at least 2 chances aswell. Imagine if we had scored that and won then you would have something to complain about

When I broguht up the two missed chances, i wasn't taking away anyhting from Englasn, liek you think I'm doing. So don'y say "if we did X". I was actually agreeing with you that he was harsh on England's d, and added points of my own.


not really like that though. I feel like cos im having a go at the ref for some funny decisions it's suddenly disgraceful etc. I complain win.lose/or draw if there's reason to.

oh well.

 

[Maverick1987]

But he wasn't. He awarded yellow cards against the All Blacks against the advice of the TMO who said he disagreed with his call, he didn't bother getting the number of the Englishmen who stopped a certain try being scored (which could have been a yellow and penalty try) yet he awards both a yellow card for an offence which Hartley instigated, and a penalty try for a scrum - despite not awarding penalties for a dominant All Black scrum in the first half. He was anything but consistent. I'm not one for refereeing bashing in general - you are welcome to check the last matches we have lost to prove I don't. But this was simply horrific.

He looked on the screen and made his own mind up for the Coles decision he clearly couldn't hear the TMO . Also we smashed you in the last 3 scrums I can't remember NZ winning 3 scrums in a row on the England line in quick succession . Kind of agree with you on the offside decision although he was asking what player it was and didn't get an answer . So presumably the TMO didn't know who it was . At the end of the day you can't just guess I suppose

 

[Horacito]

Incredible how England lost this: +1 player for 10 minutes, when they had the possibility to get the AB's tired, they kick and kick the ball and pass it over to them. But when they have the ball, then don't do it better: the lost 30 meters with ball in hand.

BTW, that wasn't a yellow card: it was a silly kick, a silly reaction after a childish provocation (good for him, got what he was after): penalty to England and that's it, but after seeing him going back to the try when it was that obvious... well, is not weird in Nigel, he does it many times.

Seriousy lot of kicking though.

 

[Maverick1987]

When I broguht up the two missed chances, i wasn't taking away anyhting from Englasn, liek you think I'm doing. So don'y say "if we did X". I was actually agreeing with you that he was harsh on England's d, and added points of my own.


not really like that though. I feel like cos im having a go at the ref for some funny decisions it's suddenly disgraceful etc. I complain win.lose/or draw if there's reason to.

oh well.

Haha fair enough ! I love having a pop at the ref too because it can't be our players fault well unless it's Ashton !

 

[j'nuh]

But he wasn't. He awarded yellow cards against the All Blacks against the advice of the TMO who said he disagreed with his call, he didn't bother getting the number of the Englishmen who stopped a certain try being scored (which could have been a yellow and penalty try) yet he awards both a yellow card for an offence which Hartley instigated, and a penalty try for a scrum - despite not awarding penalties for a dominant All Black scrum in the first half. He was anything but consistent. I'm not one for refereeing bashing in general - you are welcome to check the last matches we have lost to prove I don't. But this was simply horrific.

There was absolutely no way that All Blacks would have scored the try. The ball scooted out towards a clump of English players. The offence was for offside. One player was debatably offside, the rest were not. If the offending player (can't remember who now) had not picked the ball up, one of the non-offside players would have instead. A penalty try is given when a try is likely to have been scored had the offending player not intervened. I struggle to see how there is any reality where the ABs could have scored in that situation.

Also, referees can overturn TMOs decisions? How is this even a criticism?

And it doesn't matter if the ABs scrum was on top if they were doing so illegally. You can't just look at which way the scrum is going. The ABs were standing up in the scrum and were rightly pinged for it.

 

[goodNumber10]

can't be bothered reading through the idle trolling so just going to say my piece.

I'm disappointed we should have pushed on from that 1st half and won the game. Kudos to NZ, they were good value for the win, thought Owens made some shocking decisions for both sides which made the game frustrating at times - but he wasn't helped much by his team who seemed to be at a different game to NZ, England and Owens.

Thought the biggest issue for England was that Care (and to some extent Farrell's) kicking game fell apart in the tail of the third quarter, and that our kick chase was very bad in the the same period. Thought Brown had a shocking game. Thought Rocko and May were good to excellent, and i thought Eastmond Barritt worked well. Attwood, excellent, Kruis ok run on, but was a bit headless at times. Wood was an idiot as usual and the sooner he gets dropped the better IMHO - dark arts or not he is not worth his place.

Thought Crotty settled the NZ midfield well, and i thought Ben Smith was excellent as usual - Williams looked ok but i would pick Nonu over him. Neither 10 showered themselves in glory. The pack effort in the second half was immense and Rettalick, Whitelock and Crockett were instrumental in that as was Kaino - who i thought was excellent today. McCaw i thought was disappointing, and I honestly got fed up of seeing him lying on the wrong side or retreating through the 9.....he got away with it though so what can you say?

Think England can actually take a lot more heading on from this game than the result indicates; lets remember it was against a NZ team off the back of it's Hemisphere tournament, plus a warm up game in USA and this was an England team that hasn't played for 6 months.

All in all disappointing loss, but fair result, and not the end of the world for England if they can put SA away (that's the key for me now).

But he wasn't. He awarded yellow cards against the All Blacks against the advice of the TMO who said he disagreed with his call, he didn't bother getting the number of the Englishmen who stopped a certain try being scored (which could have been a yellow and penalty try) yet he awards both a yellow card for an offence which Hartley instigated, and a penalty try for a scrum - despite not awarding penalties for a dominant All Black scrum in the first half. He was anything but consistent. I'm not one for refereeing bashing in general - you are welcome to check the last matches we have lost to prove I don't. But this was simply horrific. How is a ball on the ground that is stationary awarded a knock on when Whitelock dived on it? Like he would literally have to have knocked it forward by scooping it off the ground and flinging it forward. Ughh, amazing performance by Owen, spectacular.

Come on NickdNZ, Coles kick was dangerous. He had no idea what he was making contact with - it could have been someones face (at which point it would have been a red). It was a yellow, and he was a d*ckhead for retaliating to being pulled after the whistle by kicking out what hartley did has no bearing on the result of his card.

The penalty under the goalposts was never a penalty try, there were defenders either side of the ruck.....

Don't be ungracious in winning mate, you won, didn't play amazing but some of that was down to England and the ref had some bad calls for both sides.

 

[nickdnz]

He looked on the screen and made his own mind up for the Coles decision he clearly couldn't hear the TMO . Also we smashed you in the last 3 scrums I can't remember NZ winning 3 scrums in a row on the England line in quick succession . Kind of agree with you on the offside decision although he was asking what player it was and didn't get an answer . So presumably the TMO didn't know who it was . At the end of the day you can't just guess I suppose

You can check with the TMO...it wasn't difficult to find. If he's willing to go to the TMO for everything else. Again just a ridiculous double standard.

It may sound bitter and I'm sorry for it. England showed they had plenty to offer and I could comment on a lot of positive play - but there is no way anyone is going to convince me that was anything short of a horrific display of refereeing.

 

[Patchey]

I'll have to join Nick on rewatching the game before I pass final judgement on how Owens did, and whether he was being completely gash. First impression is that he was poor but didn't ultimately change the result.

Next week, I'd start Ford and drop Wood for sure. Barritt defended like a beast at 13, didn't see enough of him attacking to tell if he can work there. I guess he probably deserves another game there.

 

[Jbobo]

I have a distinct feeling that Nigel was a tad bit biased in that game. If he could have awarded two penalty tries at the end there he would have.

Biased towards England? A Welshman? Yeah good one sir.


Tongue in cheek by the way, didn't see the match.

 

[j'nuh]

Wood was an idiot as usual and the sooner he gets dropped the better IMHO - dark arts or not he is not worth his place.

Absolutely agreed. He is easily the weakest link in the England pack. It's sad because I loved him a few years ago, when he was playing 7 and really concentrating on his breakdown skills. Now he does everything quite mediocre-ly. (Something that I never got about English rugby: Robshaw used to be a 6 and Wood used to be a 7 and both looked set up to go really far in their respective positions. Wood in particular had a fantastic Six Nations in that one where he was opposite Croft, can't remember which year. Both swapped positions and it hasn't seemed to work out like it should have.)

There are also plenty of options to replace him. Any of: Haskell, Ewers, Kvesic (Robshaw to 6) will do. I'd even be tempted to shift Launchbury (when fit) there so that we can accommodate another of our locks.

 

[Aristodemus]

Did I watch a different game? I think Owens made bad calls for both teams, nothing wrong with double checking if you have a doubt.

As for the game, I thought the AB's were awesome second half with their handling. The better team won. I really wish we had Corbs, Lauchbury (especially) and Tuilagi out there but oh well. We just need to make sure we go 3 from 3 now and win every game at HQ up to the WC. Attwood was great stepping up in running the lineout, him and Hartley were as solid as it gets. Eastmond showed what he brings although I feel with Manu outside him he could have shown more (massive shame Brown didn't hold that pass to go in at the corner), Roko had a good debut under quite a bit of pressure at times. Not sure I agreed with Robshaw's decision making but it is easy to second guess people in hindsight. Big week next week, bring on the Bok's!

Edit: I agree bring in Haskell

 

[Peat]

Good shout by GN10 on Kaino. Won a lot of collisions for NZ, and possibly their best player on the day if you ask me.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Correct me if I'm wrong but there are lots of examples of where a TMO suggests a verdict and the referee disagrees; since when are referres not allowed to make the call themselves? - this is normally embraced and applauded as a sign of the willingness of officials to go with what they think - however, and unsurprisingly in this case it's being attacked because it went against New Zealand. In this case, Owens has noticed a disconnect between the offence and the punishment - if you hear that there was a kick but only a penalty is being suggested, it's right to question whether those two facts add up. Its a common scenario in principle - if you acknowledge that a player has done something, you also have to recognise the appropriate punishment. For example when a player tackles another off the ball preventing a try close to the line, by acknowledging it as deliberate you have to acknowlege the appropriate sanction - yellow

Also, can someone post a gif or something of the "should have been a yellow?" I felt at the time he'd actually managed to get back onside so I'd be keen to see it again.

Despite all this, I felt New Zealand were very good value for the win and that the score flattered us. Shame about some of the trolls on here, though.

 

[j'nuh]

You can check with the TMO...it wasn't difficult to find. If he's willing to go to the TMO for everything else. Again just a ridiculous double standard.

It may sound bitter and I'm sorry for it. England showed they had plenty to offer and I could comment on a lot of positive play - but there is no way anyone is going to convince me that was anything short of a horrific display of refereeing.

That's because for the most part, he agreed with the TMO, so no issue was flagged up between them.

There's a growing trend (at least in the NH) for referees to go to the TMO, see the events on the big screen and then make the decision themselves. Hence "I'm going to tell you what I see" is becoming a more common thing for refs to say to TMOs. There's nothing wrong with it because the TMO is only an assistant, so the referee should get the priority in the decisions. The TMO can disagree and offer guidance, but it is the referee's final call on these kinds of issues. There's no double standards involved, because the rest of the night he was in agreement with the TMO, so this issue wasn't flagged up in any other capacity during the game.

 

[goodNumber10]

Agree 100% with everything you said @HenryChinaski