[2014 EOYT] England vs New Zealand

[yaboyjj]

Farrell should never have started and is likely still carrying an injury- credit in the bank and all that... Ford has to be given his big break next week.

^ I don't dispute what Ewis said in the previous post RE the game- I agree that the scoreline flatters, but I think it is harsh to suggest that they are a mediocre bunch- to quote Ewis from earlier:
'I've got to say: not a terribly exciting group (at all) but I'll bet ya England does well with relatively little on paper...AGAIN'


There is the making of a very good team, just that there are some wrong calls in tactics and also selections in a couple of key positions at the moment.

 

[tonydav58]

nooo I don't think theyre all that bad .... although the sheep might disagree....

 

[goodNumber10]

Hardly trolling. It was a flattering score by the end. The difference between the sides was more than 3 points in reality.

the difference in the sides was 3 points. The score is only flattering to England if you look at that first 20 in the second half isolated - England dominated the first half, and really but for a few what ifs New Zealand were lucky to even still be in the game, if England had recycled well enough from the kick off they could have scored and could have won. So you can say New Zealand were better than 3 points but in reality they weren't as England were still in with a shout right until the final whisle.

The scoreboard tells the story and a 3 point game is a 3 point game regardless of when the points came..

England got a few things badly wrong, more than the breakdwon their carrying was extremely passive, the receiver being static until he gets the ball was one of the biggest issues today - coupled with Care & Farrells poor tactical kicking in the second half.

 

[smartcooky]

There was absolutely no way that All Blacks would have scored the try. The ball scooted out towards a clump of English players. The offence was for offside. One player was debatably offside, the rest were not. If the offending player (can't remember who now) had not picked the ball up, one of the non-offside players would have instead. A penalty try is given when a try is likely to have been scored had the offending player not intervened. I struggle to see how there is any reality where the ABs could have scored in that situation.

Rubbish. The ruck was on the goal line, and the hindmost foot of the hindmost England player was on the goal line (player arrowed in yellow). That means the goal line IS the offside line, and every single England player (arrowed in red) defending on their left was in front of the goal-line, so they were ALL offside.

If the England players had been on their goal-line instead of 1 - 2 metres in front of it, the extra room the NZ team has means a try was probable

 

[Wendigo7]

I don't disagree with anything Ewis said.

They are starting to hit their ceiling which is a worry. It doesn't help our best and key players are injury prone. It's killing us now. NZ never ever get long injuries. We have 10 of which 6 are first teamers.

also for the record. Farrell will never be dropped. I'm sorry he won't. Anyone saying otherwise is clueless now. Not to be negative but I can't see Ford getting game time against SA or Samoa. They will use it to get Farrell fit and say he is getting caps for 10 minutes. He's not, but Farrell will not be dropped regardless no matter what people say.

 

[Bean]

England didn't dominate the first half lol People seem to forget how the AB's play. If England were to have genuinely dominated the first half, they would have had to set a target beyond what the ABs would have been happy to lose by in the first half. Meaning, England needed to be a good 20-30 points in front of ABs in the first 40mins to have won that half of the game.

 

[goodNumber10]

England didn't dominate the first half lol People seem to forget how the AB's play. If England were to have genuinely dominated the first half, they would have had to set a target beyond what the ABs would have been happy to lose by in the first half. Meaning, England needed to be a good 20-30 points in front of ABs in the first 40mins to have won that half of the game.

no.

/the end

 

[Bean]

Heh. I called it right from the start. The AB's are slow to start, everyone knows that. Just because a side dominates the ABs in the first 20 doesn't mean they outsmarted or beat the ABs. The All Blacks always finish very, very, very strongly and so to accommodate for this you have to have beaten the All Blacks very, very, very convincingly in the first half because no team will outplay the AB's in the second half.

 

[tonydav58]

yep,,i agree.. Lancasters first choice stand off is Farrell and only injury will change that...its a shame in a way as id really like to see just what Cipriani would have done given the chance....however I think our real problem is at scrum half,,,Care is not good enough and as ive said before,he costs us games with his poor box kicking...unfortunately we don't have many alternatives....

 

[goodNumber10]

Yep, you called it... prefectly.

Second half predictions;

NZ 67 Try's, England 2 Try's.

 

[William18]

Nigel Owens was very poor. The home crowd just should not be allowed to have such an influence on a game and I don't get why the referee can ignore the TMO. It seems like they get paid a lot of money for nothing. It just makes the game look amateurish when the officials disagree on a decision live on TV.

I also thought the section of England fans who booed McCaw at the end of the game when he was being interviewed were an absolute disgrace. It was only a section of the crowd but it was absolutely disgraceful.

As to the game itself, I thought we played poorly in the first half but well in the second. England weren't really in that second half but were still able to close to within 3 points. This is a hint as to what the World Cup will probably be like.

 

[Bean]

That was perhaps a bit ambitious... still, I did say England needed to be 20 points ahead when everyone, including the commentators, were saying that England were dominating the game.

 

[Alex Anghel]

The final score was indeed flattering for England, in the second half they were dominated sometimes like a 2nd tier nation (even when Coles was sin-binned, England could hardly get out of its own 22). Too bad the AB's goal-kicking was so poor today and that SBW selfishness prevented two tries being scored (in the first half he should have passed the ball on the left and in the second one he should have offloaded to Tuipolotu/the other guy, who would have scored right under the post). Normally, ABs should have won it just like I predicted, by 20.

In another train of thought, I found it very annoying that several ABs line outs were disrupted by England.

 

[goodNumber10]

That was perhaps a bit ambitious... still, I did say England needed to be 20 points ahead when everyone, including the commentators, were saying that England were dominating the game.

 

[Wendigo7]

Chris cook would be a good option. Dan Robson is another.

It's not the scrum halves though. The style is clear. Kick or box kick out. Force a penalty and play territory. Skill levels optional. It's Gatland ball but with a different twist. The backs cannot look good in this style whatever side you select. They are picked to be good in defence and not to give much away. They aren't picked to be good in attack regardless of what Lancaster says about scoring points and being in form.

Which again comes to Farrell. He's averaging 4 missed tackles this season at int level. What is the actual point? If he's selected for his defence and it's becoming a weakness why is he selected?

 

[tenpm]

Jesus, what is it about England vs. All Blacks matches that bring out the worst in our posters?


I can only say this in hindsight, but I knew the All Blacks were going to win when they were only 3 points down at halftime despite England putting them under massive amounts of pressure. They could easily have let in a couple more tries, but they didn't - and teams that absorbed pressure during the first half tend to come back firing in the second.

SBW didn't have a great game; clearly, he still needs more time to adjust. His decision making in terms of whether to offload or take the tackle was suspect, and if he'd gotten it right the All Blacks might have been much further ahead on the scoreline.
A more long-term problem is the All Blacks' goalkicking. Cruden and Barrett have had quite a few poor kicking performances lately, and I'm worried that it's going to cost them a game sooner or later. I've no idea what is going wrong there, but it needs to be fixed before the World Cup.

Onto the English side, why does Robshaw keep making these strange penalty decisions in the dying minutes? This is far from the first time that it's happened, and it keeps costing his side the chance to win. I know there's no guarantee going for a quick tap with 3 minutes to go would have led to an English victory, but I can't understand why he insisted on wasting time with all these scrums when he knew they needed to score at least twice.

About Owens's performance today - what can I say, really. He needs to review the TMO protocols. I don't mind that he sent Coles to the sin bin, per se; I just wish it wasn't because of a communication breakdown. If he knew the TMO was suggesting a penalty only, but wanted to overrule him, then that would have been completely fine. The kick was dangerous, and the yellow card was justified. But he needed to have a clear discussion with the TMO, and there just wasn't one. Same goes for the try review. If he wasn't sure a try was scored and wanted to check, then by all means do so - but he can't do that after he awarded the try, when the flyhalf is already lining up for the kick.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I love how we get within 3 points of the all blacks and all the traditional england haters come out with such rubbish.

It will be interesting to see any of the other home nations do any better against the all blacks.

Haters will hate and we the English are better than the rest! Always have been

 

[goodNumber10]

Chris cook would be a good option. Dan Robson is another.

It's not the scrum halves though. The style is clear. Kick or box kick out. Force a penalty and play territory. Skill levels optional. It's Gatland ball but with a different twist. The backs cannot look good in this style whatever side you select. They are picked to be good in defence and not to give much away. They aren't picked to be good in attack regardless of what Lancaster says about scoring points and being in form.

Which again comes to Farrell. He's averaging 4 missed tackles this season at int level. What is the actual point? If he's selected for his defence and it's becoming a weakness why is he selected?

First it depends on where and how the tackles were missed, were they head on/down his channel or were they cover tackles/jockeys?

Secondly the England defence system doesn't count made/missed tackles it judges each tackle based on positive or negative outcome - so even if his tackle is a miss if the outcome is positive (sends the attacker into the back row etc... ) it's ok.

But he needed to have a clear discussion with the TMO, and there just wasn't one.

Pretty sure he can make the decision based on what he sees on the big screen - that is the protocol.

Same goes for the try review. If he wasn't sure a try was scored and wanted to check, then by all means do so - but he can't do that after he awarded the try, when the flyhalf is already lining up for the kick.

again, I'm pretty sure he can review it when he wants it something comes to light after the try was awarded...

On both occasions the outcome was correct so what are people moaning?

 

[yaboyjj]

Well then, what can be done to raise the 'ceiling' of this team; what players are there at the moment who will never be quite good enough at the top level, because if that is the case, changes have to be made sharpish...
I can't believe that this is such a mediocre bunch of players considering some of the performances of the last couple of years, In other words, there must be some pretty good players around the field to make up for the obvious poor performers elsewhere. Even to get within 3 points today (irregardless of how flukey it may seem- most AB games have been close) we must must be doing a pretty good job in some areas to make up for the dismal half backs....

 

[TheSaffycen]

Very much the Sarries defensive system.
I think we need a more pragmatic scrum/fly half if we are to try and execute our gameplan. I wish Laidlaw was English as he has a great kicking game and normally makes the right decision, maybe Ben Spencer ? Chris Cook will work if we play with Ford or Farrell on a attacking gameplan.