[2013 TRC] Argentina vs. New Zealand in La Plata (28/09/2013)

[Pampas]

So I heard Cory Jane is out? Nvm, Ben Smith is on!

Congrats All Blacks, once again you showed who's the best team on earth. Savea is a ****ing beast, even when having a bad day he managed himself to make the difference once again. Seriously that guy is awesome, reminds me to Jonah Lomu.

Disappointing performance from the Pumas again, making tons of handling errors and bad decisions. I am getting myself worried since we're not showing any challenge.
We need two things right away:
- New coach with experience at international level.
- Super Rugby franchise. Unlike AB's, Boks and Wallabies, all of our players are spread in Europe and they don't get the chance to play with each other really often. The difference was abysmal between both teams. You easily notice that they play very coordinated.

PS: Saffas must hate us.

I think you are being too negative. We were facing the best team in the world, and arguably one of the best in the history of the game. The Pumas are improving which was the main goal when we joined the RC, and actually played a fantastic first half. Without a few stupid mistakes or even with a little more luck, we could have ended the first half up in the score.
The last 20-30 min was another story. But thats when the AB always make a difference, not only against the Pumas but against every opponent.
We tried to display an offensive style of rugby, which with the weather and the class of the opponent, was not the smartest thing to do. May be next week is the game to do it, thou Australia is a very dangerous team, even with the current bad moment they are going through.
All in all, i think that playing like this we could have beaten most of the tier one teams. And like someone said before, i would have been happy without that last try, but i still believe we did a damn good job.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

So I heard Cory Jane is out? Nvm, Ben Smith is on!

Congrats All Blacks, once again you showed who's the best team on earth. Savea is a ****ing beast, even when having a bad day he managed himself to make the difference once again. Seriously that guy is awesome, reminds me to Jonah Lomu.

Disappointing performance from the Pumas again, making tons of handling errors and bad decisions. I am getting myself worried since we're not showing any challenge.
We need two things right away:
- New coach with experience at international level.
- Super Rugby franchise. Unlike AB's, Boks and Wallabies, all of our players are spread in Europe and they don't get the chance to play with each other really often. The difference was abysmal between both teams. You easily notice that they play very coordinated.

PS: Saffas must hate us.

No, we don't. It would have been nice for both of us if your guys could've been more accurate but we can only blame ourselves really for also being very inaccurate for the majority of our game; if you want to be the best you have to do it yourself and not trust to other results and luck (although a little luck is never unwelcome!).

It would be awesome to have some Argentine teams in SR. The new 'trinations' is a lot better with the new blood It would certainly help the Pumas to have all the players closer together and with more settled combinations and 'in time' with the other nations' calender. Unfortunately for us most of our best players are also now in Europe and we see now the difficulties logistically you are facing. I hope both our teams can make arrangements that better suit our national teams. Best of luck for next weekend!!

Hate you guys? Nah. NZ deserve the championship and we lost it ourselves by not scoring a bonus point yesterday. We could've easily done it if we didn't relax to much in the second half. In stead, the players seemed content with 4 log points.

Ja, though I can see us win at Ellis Park I can't imagine us getting the required BP and keeping it from them at the same time. And as you said it could have easily been very different. With a little bit of luck in Eden park NZ could have had 1 less BP and us 1 more and yesterday was just a lack of real focus throughout which IMO is the only real edge the ABs have on us at this stage. Even with our heavyish loss to them we have the superior points difference which could've/should've/would've been the kicker. It might not sound it but really, I am over Eden Park and just upset with the guys that they didn't have a go for that BP yesterday; would've made the return match for the ***le soooo much more easier. Now, unless we really have a perfect game left in us all we can hope for is a win and then build on the good things for the year and work on the bad of which there is plenty.

 

[ABs2011]

I actually thought Argentina played very well. To be ahead of the ABs in the second half is something to be proud of. Add to that the fact you pretty much humiliated the AB scrum and that it was a couple moments of luck/brilliance which gave the ABs two of their tries (Savea and Smtih (2)) I think it was a very good effort. I do feel like Argentina are improving. If you take out the first game of the RC then they have competed very well (more consistent than last year).

As always though, the ABs managed take their chances and score tries. In most aspects of the game other Nations are able to compete with the ABs, or be better, but no side in the world has come close to finding a way to consistently score tries like the ABs can. Combination of tactics and straight up flair I suspect.

Wishing Argentina all the best v OZ and looking forward to a very tough game v SA (If SA win I think they will take a lot out of this RC even if they don't get the bonus points they need to win the whole thing). If we win though...back to the status quo I guess

 

[Aspry]

I think you are being too negative. We were facing the best team in the world, and arguably one of the best in the history of the game. The Pumas are improving which was the main goal when we joined the RC, and actually played a fantastic first half. Without a few stupid mistakes or even with a little more luck, we could have ended the first half up in the score.
The last 20-30 min was another story. But thats when the AB always make a difference, not only against the Pumas but against every opponent.
We tried to display an offensive style of rugby, which with the weather and the class of the opponent, was not the smartest thing to do. May be next week is the game to do it, thou Australia is a very dangerous team, even with the current bad moment they are going through.
All in all, i think that playing like this we could have beaten most of the tier one teams. And like someone said before, i would have been happy without that last try, but i still believe we did a damn good job.

I'm not being negative, just realistic.
I know we're facing the All Blacks and that we certainly improved a little since last years, yeah I give you that. The thing is we keep making silly mistakes and bad decisions that have nothing to do with the level of our opponents. I am talking about those box kicks by Landajo (totally unnecesary and pointless) and the tons of handling errors we committed. Hernandez was awful with the ball in hands once again, I reckon he shouldn't start vs Australia next week. Also we're way too rushed when making decisions, like that attempt of drop by Sanchez in the first half, we clearly could keep playing the ball a little bit more.

Offensive game you said? We almost didn't attack them. We rarely went near their ingoal. I remember only one specific moment, the score was 26-12 for the All Blacks around the 60 min of game and we have a penalty in a our favour near their ingoal (someone took down Agulla without the ball) and we kick to the sticks instead of choosing the scrum and try to score. I know that add points it's always important against this kinds of sides, but seriously sometimes we should consider attack them. If we're going to do the same thing against Australia next week we're ****ed up, simply as that. We can't expect to win a game by only forcing penalties with our scrum, not against these teams. We need to play more with our backs.

I honestly don't know if we could beat most of the tier 1 teams playing like this. The end of year tour would be nice to see where are we standing right now.

 

[ABs2011]

If I'm the coach of a team weak and I have to face a top team like ABs, YES. And I mind the skills to defend of ALL my players. If you're Japan and you face a team like Springboks, is stupid out to attack, blow for blow not have a chance. You should worry in the defense of your team before the attack.

Cheers

I know you have said this before, but I just really don't get it. It just seems like such a defeatist attitude, but more importantly it seems you are not taking into account the natural way teams play and what their respective strengths are!

Any team (no matter how strong or weak) should play to their strengths. Taking a team like Japan and telling them to play defensively just makes no sense? They are an attacking ball in hand rugby team. Blow for blow they will in all likelihood never beat the ABs or SA but losing to these team AND playing tactics which are the complete opposite of what they are used to, and as you seem to be suggesting, starting lesser quality players because they may be able to defend better I just do not get.....

It seems as a coach of such a team you would prefer to lose something like 72 - 0 as opposed to a score more like 85 - 17. Where are the benefits for Japan in that? But the more important thing which I think you are missing is that when these second tier teams come up against the worlds best it is a chance to develop, if you change your tactics because you know you are going to lose anyway, you miss the chance to develop the team. Makes no sense at all.

I have to agree with psychic duck, some of you posts really make me question how much you actually know about rugby (and I haven't even mentioned the logic of choosing a winger based on rucking and mauling abilities)?

 

[yarmolinsky]

So I heard Cory Jane is out?

[the used words did not meet the requirements of embedded moderating tool]

 

[psychic duck]

I'm not being negative, just realistic.
I know we're facing the All Blacks and that we certainly improved a little since last years, yeah I give you that. The thing is we keep making silly mistakes and bad decisions that have nothing to do with the level of our opponents. I am talking about those box kicks by Landajo (totally unnecesary and pointless) and the tons of handling errors we committed. Hernandez was awful with the ball in hands once again, I reckon he shouldn't start vs Australia next week. Also we're way too rushed when making decisions, like that attempt of drop by Sanchez in the first half, we clearly could keep playing the ball a little bit more.

Offensive game you said? We almost didn't attack them. We rarely went near their ingoal. I remember only one specific moment, the score was 26-12 for the All Blacks around the 60 min of game and we have a penalty in a our favour near their ingoal (someone took down Agulla without the ball) and we kick to the sticks instead of choosing the scrum and try to score. I know that add points it's always important against this kinds of sides, but seriously sometimes we should consider attack them. If we're going to do the same thing against Australia next week we're ****ed up, simply as that. We can't expect to win a game by only forcing penalties with our scrum, not against these teams. We need to play more with our backs.

I honestly don't know if we could beat most of the tier 1 teams playing like this. The end of year tour would be nice to see where are we standing right now.

Landajo always does bad box kicks. If you pick him that's what you get. He is the Argentine Gareth Cooper.

 

[dasNdanger]

I think it's funny that the auto ad that pops up at the bottom of this thread is for 'dementia care'.


das

 

[Aspry]

Landajo always does bad box kicks. If you pick him that's what you get. He is the Argentine Gareth Cooper.

Well yeah, Landajo is by far our worst player. When the team makes a mistake somehow he's always involved. It's a pitty we don't have someone better for that position. Tomas Cubelli (the replacement) isn't better than him either but I think he should start next match. At least his kicking game is smarter.

Savea's try was his mistake. He took too much time with the ball and we lost the possession after that.... Pretty funny, he made exactly the same mistake in Hamilton, the only difference was that he kicked the ball in that time. In both plays Kieran Read was concentrated enough to force the mistake and also in both situations was Savea who scored.

Juan Martin Hernandez is the other one who's playing awful. Lately he doesn't bring nothing to the team, he makes a lot of handling errors and I can't remember the last time he broke a defensive tackle. He should be replaced, I'm thinking on move Lucas Gonzalez Amorosino to Fullback and Agulla as a wing. But that won't happen, since Phelan won't drop him.

They should consider bring Cordero into the squad, that kid showed he has great skills, but ofc it won't happen under Phelan's management.



Our other big problem lies in the centers coupple. They just can't break the opponent's defense. The only one who did that so far was Contepomi vs Australia but he's about to retire so it's pointless..

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

I think it's funny that the auto ad that pops up at the bottom of this thread is for 'dementia care'.


das

You do know those ads are based on browser history right? You probably don't remember

 

[dasNdanger]

You do know those ads are based on browser history right? You probably don't remember

Well, if they were based on MY browser history, then why the hell isn't it advertising hawt albinos??!

das

 

[Big Ewis]

15-33.
Heard the Pumas' was downright impressive in this one...gotta check it out asap.
Couldn't score a try on the Blacks, though at home...but amassed 15pts nonetheless and gave the Blacks a run for their money in the first half at least it seems. Four tries to none isn't a disaster...

The AB's look almighty right now and besides that utterly peculiar match in Twickenham they haven't lost a match in ages. In retrospect, that draw against the Wallabies some time ago was truly an admirable feat from the Aussies...'Sharpie' was awesome.
Next week will be a huuuuuge test for both the Boks and the Blacks.

 

[dasNdanger]

15-33.
Heard the Pumas' was downright impressive in this one...gotta check it out asap.
Couldn't score a try on the Blacks, though at home...but amassed 15pts nonetheless and gave the Blacks a run for their money in the first half at least it seems. Four tries to none isn't a disaster...

The AB's look almighty right now and besides that utterly peculiar match in Twickenham they haven't lost a match in ages. In retrospect, that draw against the Wallabies some time ago was truly an admirable feat from the Aussies...'Sharpie' was awesome.
Next week will be a huuuuuge test for both the Boks and the Blacks.

I think they're due. They should have performed better against the Pumas, I think - unless the Pumas are just that much better than I imagine. I think fatigue may be setting in, and with injuries and such I can easily see the Boks winning the next match.



das

 

[Rusoref]

Well I meant the best team we can use right now, of course Camacho is a better option than Imhoff but sadly he's injured. If he wasn't, he would start for sure.

Totally forgot about Carizza. You're right on that one.

Sorry but i believe that we couldn't let our fastest wing out, if you want Camacho in, the other must be Imhoff, even more playing against Australia, if we play against SA could be Agulla but only for his size.

 

[Superalexmarket]

I'm tired of Landajo and his stupids decisions and kicking to nowhere. JM Hernandez is not comfortable playing fullback, he committed too many errors.
The first try of Ben Smith, was WONDERFUL, a magnificent piece of New Zealander rugby.
(Here an analysis of that great run that started Ma'a Nonu)
[video]http://espndeportes.espn.go.com/videohub/video/clipDeportes?id=1915254&cc=7586[/video]

 

[Rusoref]

We have to remember that we will never win a game defending. We have to attack

 

[Big Ewis]

I think they're due. They should have performed better against the Pumas, I think - unless the Pumas are just that much better than I imagine. I think fatigue may be setting in, and with injuries and such I can easily see the Boks winning the next match.

well I haven't seen the thing, but 4 tries to none in a highly hostile environment, away match....looks pretty All-Black-y to me in theory.
How many teams go to some Tier 1 nation with major qualities (despite not being in divine form currently) and puts 4 tries on them and concedes none, ending up with twice their opponents' score ?

 

[dasNdanger]

well I haven't seen the thing, but 4 tries to none in a highly hostile environment, away match....looks pretty All-Black-y to me in theory.
How many teams go to some Tier 1 nation with major qualities (despite not being in divine form currently) and puts 4 tries on them and concedes none, ending up with twice their opponents' score ?

Those tries came after the Pumas had tired out. If the Pumas can keep up their first-half momentum for an entire game they will be a formidable foe! They need to work on conserving energy and making strategic replacements. Also, as Rusoref says, the need to work on their attack. Great defense, but when that's all you do your defense is going to wear out before the end of the game and allow tries, as what happened here. So, conserve that defensive energy by working on better attacking play. Wear out the ABs defense a bit, instead of your own.

I know it's not going to be easy, but from what I've seen of the games already played it seems the defense - though good - just can't maintain their effort for the full 80. In some respects it reminds me of the way Italy plays.


das ay,

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

well I haven't seen the thing, but 4 tries to none in a highly hostile environment, away match....looks pretty All-Black-y to me in theory.
How many teams go to some Tier 1 nation with major qualities (despite not being in divine form currently) and puts 4 tries on them and concedes none, ending up with twice their opponents' score ?

2.

I refer you to: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-07/wallabies-wilts-as-springboks-dominate-in-brisbane/4943566

 

[Big Ewis]

das
well it's not that simple unfortunately. It's not so much endurance as it is the overall quality of the team. They can manage to hold up for a while because they play above their level that time. Extra hard work from the forwards, extra focused defense, and so on for every aspect. But then, 80min is a long time and they'll obviously break eventually.
It's not like they're out of shape in any regard, and just can't play a full int'l match. But the focus is so high, and the adrenaline pumps for only so long until you return to a 'normal' state.
You need to play a near perfect game to beat NZ, especially when you're that behind in the quality of your individual players, and chemistry as a team.

To beat NZ, it's as simple as that, the Pumas need to be much better in general. It was almost painful to watch NZ ARG (that first test some weeks ago) in how slow the Pumas were in comparison, how inaccurate some territory-kicks were, how sloppy the passing and attack were...
Argentina can grind out a win against the Wallabies these days, almost did; and apparently have what it takes to beat SA at home. But a super attack and fantastic defense like the Blacks...just too much right now. Argentina just can't beat NZ. Not in a full 80min Rugby Union test...