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[2013 TRC] Argentina vs. New Zealand in La Plata (28/09/2013)

Sad about Read. It's a pity that we are gonna miss players like him on the field. I hate to say it but the truth is that without McCaw Carter and now Read our chances to pull an upset are bigger.

Who will be te captain now? Conrad Smith? Hore? Or maybe Woodcock?
 
Sad about Read. It's a pity that we are gonna miss players like him on the field. I hate to say it but the truth is that without McCaw Carter and now Read our chances to pull an upset are bigger.

Who will be te captain now? Conrad Smith? Hore? Or maybe Woodcock?
Yep Conrad Smith should be next up as he was in the south africa match when read was given a yellow card
 

Nice article.

As for my personal predictions, I am not really sure of what expect. Could be a thrash from NZ but also could be a tight match.
I don't really think Read's absence change a lot the game, since All Blacks have way too much class in their line-up. I am sure they won't miss him a lot, the only thing they might miss would be his experience and leadership. It would be interesting to watch how the inexperienced players respond to this important test match. I think they might feel a little pressed from the opposite crowd, let's see how they handle it.

NZ by +10.
 
From reading that article I would suggest the author has not seen too much of Marcelo Bosch play ...

For Argentina: A player whose stock is rapidly rising. Marcelo Bosch will soon be the latest addition to Saracens' impressive roster, but for now he is one of Argentina's biggest assets. An elusive centre with fine hands and a good eye for the line, Bosch was on the scoresheet against South Africa in Mendoza and is a huge threat.
 
mate when every loosie in your squad is not available not matter what size the squad is, you have to call in a replacement.

But that's not the case now, is it? They only brought 28 players along. If they would have brought 30, this wouldn't be an issue. Now they have to drop a player from the squad to call up a new one. Dropping Read or McCaw is not an option so another player has to be the victim. Maybe a winger or lock.
 
What are you trying to suggest? I don't see what's wrong with that.

It makes about 5 or 6 statements that to say are generous would be an understatement within a couple lines of writing.

The author just saw him score a try against South Africa and made the rest of it up. The author has clearly not watched much of Argentina or Biarritz in recent times. Ask Tony Manx about Bosch.
 
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Gonzalo Camacho is probably our best wing. Imhoff may have more potential, but nowadays i believe Camacho is the best we have.

Of course Camacho is a better option than Imhoff but sadly he's injured. If he wasn't, he would start for sure.

Imhoff is better than Camacho. I'd thought that the great finish to skin Halfpenny last November would have confirmed this, certainly none of the Pumas other wingers would have got remotely near scoring that try. However sadly not and the general Argentine fan still obsess about gutsiness over talent.

Camacho is Argentina best winger imo, he's exceptional. His tenacity, strength and footwork enables him to make ground where there doesn't appear to be any space and of course he is a very good defender. Imhoff, like Amorosino is a talented attacker but is also unreliable with notable weaknesses in defense.

If both players were Argentine. The Pumas would probably think that Sean Lamont is the better player than Shane Williams. For a side that has struggled to get over the winning line of late, I would rather have my match winner in the lineup.
He can just as easily be a match-loser with a missed tackle. As an aside, Camacho is a much better player than Sean Lamont ever was imo.

Offensive wise, Imhoff is head and shoulders above the rest, and probably will become the best winger since Nani Corletto, but right now, i think Camacho is the best overall. He is very good defending and is one of the few players who is strongh enough to break some tackles. He proved his value in many games of the current and the past RC editions. Anyway, I believe no one doubts that Imhoff and Camacho are our two starting wings.

Yeah, it's not really about perceived talent, it's about effectiveness. Camacho is nothing if not consistently effective and that's what you want from all your players.

What are you trying to suggest? I don't see what's wrong with that.
"an elusive centre, with fine hands and a good eye for the tryline". Bosch is more of a defensive lynchpin than an elusive attacking centre.
 
But that's not the case now, is it? They only brought 28 players along. If they would have brought 30, this wouldn't be an issue. Now they have to drop a player from the squad to call up a new one. Dropping Read or McCaw is not an option so another player has to be the victim. Maybe a winger or lock.

Mate, you are a step behind the times. The ABs are governed by a 28 man squad. They CANT take 30. That is the whole point.

They would not have dropped anyone, they have already indicated Messam would have played 8, Lutaua 6 and loose cover on the bench would have been Coles!

Anyway Read will play (last I heard anyway). He will not be 100% but will play!
 
Camacho is Argentina best winger imo, he's exceptional. His tenacity, strength and footwork enables him to make ground where there doesn't appear to be any space and of course he is a very good defender. Imhoff, like Amorosino is a talented attacker but is also unreliable with notable weaknesses in defense.

He can just as easily be a match-loser with a missed tackle. As an aside, Camacho is a much better player than Sean Lamont ever was imo.

Yeah, it's not really about perceived talent, it's about effectiveness. Camacho is nothing if not consistently effective and that's what you want from all your players.

You can't have an entire backline of Camacho's though. For what he has in effort, he has his limitations in that he is lacking in physical gifts. He's not particularly quick, not particularly elusive nor particularly powerful and he can't score tries within a blunt and limited attacking system outside poor centres who struggle to create any space like Bosch and Fernandez.

I also feel that many are overrating Imhoff's perceived weakness which isn't enough to ignore his strengths. Ireland, Wales, England or Scotland could all pick better defenders in the back three than Zebo, Cuthbert, Ashton, Wade, Hogg or Visser. But they don't as you don't pick wingers simply for defence which unfortunately seems to be the Argentine attitude. It's a balance between the wingers, Camacho and Agulla doesn't work, their respective try strike rates back this up.

I also feel you are overrating Camacho. I doubt any of the Lions nations would select him in the lineup. He has had notable bad matches for himself in his career such as Ireland last year, and considering he's nearly 30 years old and only really got in the team since 2010 it would suggest he hasn't always been that highly rated in Argentina either considering some pretty average to poor wingers (in the international context) were selected ahead of him for a long while. He's just a repeat of Lucas Borges, perhaps a little solider.

Argentina need more than the likes of Camacho, Agulla, Aramburu, Borges type wingers, and unlike before they now have other options. The only reason Camacho and Agulla are retained is due to the habit of picking that type of winger for the previous dozen years and Phelan can't change. All the other top 8 teams would probably select Imhoff and Montero from the Pumas current player base, especially if the latter finds a decent team. I can't think of any other 5'9" limited choppers who have reached international rugby with other nations. It's a uniquely Argentine type of wing.
 
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Well I already made my statement of why I think Camacho would be more usefull against this kind of sides (forgot mention experience btw). Anyways, as I already mention this discussion is pointless for the moment since Camacho is injured and Imhoff more likely will play these last two matches and also the end of year tests.

I really don't think we're overrating Camacho or underrating Imhoff, At least speaking from my point of view.

I have to agree with psychic duck though, Phelan didn't gave Imhoff enough opportunities on the field and he prefer to retain players only judging by their name and not by their performance.
 
I really don't think we're overrating Camacho or underrating Imhoff, At least speaking from my point of view.

I said you're overrating Imhoff's defensive weakness. There are worse tacklers in international rugby, Shane Williams before he bulked up and Chris Ashton come to mind. Imhoff isn't great technically and tends to use too much of his arms and not enough of his shoulders especially in the open spaces, he hasn't been exposed yet at international level as yet though anyway. As for Camacho, have we forgotten Sexton ran through his missed tackles last November? Or Banahan bumping him off in 2009? Don't get me wrong, he's a good brave tackler, but he's not as perfect and consistent as is being made out, hence why no other top 10 international side would start him. It's also irritating how every discussion of Argentina's wingers comes to defence, Camacho is awfully limited in attack.
 
we´re waiting for the match...cloudy here in La Plata
 
You can't have an entire backline of Camacho's though. For what he has in effort, he has his limitations in that he is lacking in physical gifts. He's not particularly quick, not particularly elusive nor particularly powerful and he can't score tries within a blunt and limited attacking system outside poor centres who struggle to create any space like Bosch and Fernandez.

I also feel that many are overrating Imhoff's perceived weakness which isn't enough to ignore his strengths. Ireland, Wales, England or Scotland could all pick better defenders in the back three than Zebo, Cuthbert, Ashton, Wade, Hogg or Visser. But they don't as you don't pick wingers simply for defence which unfortunately seems to be the Argentine attitude. It's a balance between the wingers, Camacho and Agulla doesn't work, their respective try strike rates back this up.

I also feel you are overrating Camacho. I doubt any of the Lions nations would select him in the lineup. He has had notable bad matches for himself in his career such as Ireland last year, and considering he's nearly 30 years old and only really got in the team since 2010 it would suggest he hasn't always been that highly rated in Argentina either considering some pretty average to poor wingers (in the international context) were selected ahead of him for a long while. He's just a repeat of Lucas Borges, perhaps a little solider.

Argentina need more than the likes of Camacho, Agulla, Aramburu, Borges type wingers, and unlike before they now have other options. The only reason Camacho and Agulla are retained is due to the habit of picking that type of winger for the previous dozen years and Phelan can't change. All the other top 8 teams would probably select Imhoff and Montero from the Pumas current player base, especially if the latter finds a decent team. I can't think of any other 5'9" limited choppers who have reached international rugby with other nations. It's a uniquely Argentine type of wing.
I'm just judging him based on what I see in the test arena, the guy plays very well against top-ranked teams like NZ, SA and Australia. It's all about effectiveness, and he's very effective with limited ball and space. In terms of right wings I'd take him over Ashton, Cuthbert, Gilroy, Maitland, Venditti, Bowe, Basson, Le Roux etc but I'd pick Ben Smith and Israel Folau over him.
 
I'm just judging him based on what I see in the test arena, the guy plays very well against top-ranked teams like NZ, SA and Australia. It's all about effectiveness, and he's very effective with limited ball and space. In terms of right wings I'd take him over Ashton, Cuthbert, Gilroy, Maitland, Venditti, Bowe, Basson, Le Roux etc but I'd pick Ben Smith and Israel Folau over him.

You'd drop Tommy Bowe, a player with 50% strike rate in tests and one of a select few to have scored against all 3 SANZAR nations and widel regarded as one of Europe's finest and most consistent wingers these past 5 years, for Camacho? You honestly believe that? I'd argue against most of the others by the way as well (bear in mind Italy aren't a top 10 nations as well.
 
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Go, Argentina! Do SA (and yourselves as well I suppose) a favor and keep NZ away from the bonus point, please!?
 
You'd drop Tommy Bowe, a player with 50% strike rate in tests and one of a select few to have scored against all 3 SANZAR nations and widel regarded as one of Europe's finest and most consistent wingers these past 5 years, for Camacho? You honestly believe that? I'd argue against most of the others by the way as well (bear in mind Italy aren't a top 10 nations as well.

yes, I'm aware the Irish and Welsh media love him for RaboPro-ing it with the Ospreys and Ulster but the product on the pitch at the highest level doesn't match up to that enthusiasm they show imo. He's a good winger, but not the world class player as some would have us believe, and not all that close either really (not saying Camacho is world class either).

Strike-rates are a very limited means of comparing the quality of test wingers since they don't all get the same opportunities to score, for example an Italian winger is going to be up against it. Even of themselves strike-rates are limited, if we look at Chris Ashton, he was killing it in terms of scoring tries under Johnson but under Lancaster the serious flaws in his game have been exposed. He barely looked club standard in the 6N this year.

We clearly look for different things in a winger. You like Imhoff and iirc Amorosino but while they show a touch of attacking genius now and again those guys are equally capable of letting the team down.
 
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