[2013 TRC] Argentina vs. New Zealand in La Plata (28/09/2013)

[jessta]

Also kieran read could probs cover 7, he started his career at 6 and adjusted to 8 like it was nothing. Seems like he'd have the skills to do the job at 7

 

[Jaguares]

Luatua has not and never will be an openside flanker. Messam can cover there - but he's hardly as good there as Sam Cane.

Yeah, I prefer Matt Todd over Sam Cane at 7 but he isn't on the team then I prefer to someone before Sam. Then it might be Messam at 7 and Luatua at 6...

I think that Luatua could play at 7, he has the ability to do so is a matter of taste. He's in a good time, not be left out of the team. It's like when Robbie Deans chose JOC to play at wing when he's playing at first 5/8 in Western Force.

Robbie had many good players in that position but JOC was in a good time, then Robbie had to make a place for him in the team, JOC couldn't be out of the team.

Cheers

Yeah I was trying to figure out the logic with that one....Barrett over Cruden I don't get either.

Well, Cruden is not exactly God or Dan Carter, he's a mere mortal. I don't see much difference between Cruden and Barrett, the only one who is at a higher level in that position is Dan Carter, the others first 5/8 are in the same echelon.

 

[nickdnz]

Yeah, I prefer Matt Todd over Sam Cane at 7 but he isn't on the team then I prefer to someone before Sam. Then it might be Messam at 7 and Luatua at 6...

I think that Luatua could play at 7, he has the ability to do so is a matter of taste. He's in a good time, not be left out of the team. It's like when Robbie Deans chose JOC to play at wing when he's playing at first 5/8 in Western Force.

Robbie had many good players in that position but JOC was in a good time, then Robbie had to make a place for him in the team, JOC couldn't be out of the team.

Cheers

Well, Cruden is not exactly God or Dan Carter, he's a mere mortal. I don't see much difference between Cruden and Barrett, the only one who is at a higher level in that position is Dan Carter, the others first 5/8 are in the same echelon.

1. JOC started as a fullback for the Wallabies and had played wing before. I'd argue that the core role of an openside flanker is sufficiently different from a blindside that they require different skill sets - ones which Luatua doesn't have. He's not a pilferer. Sam Cane is.

I'm a Canes's fan and therefore a Barrett fan - but Barrett being ahead of Cruden based off one strong test is jumping the gun a bit. But at least Barrett is in the correct position...

 

[Jaguares]

I told you, I prefer Matt Todd over Cane, I think Cane isn't better than Todd and I don't understand why Cane is selected and Todd is ignored.

I don't remember what position JOC started, if it was wing or fullback, but it was because he was in a good moment and Robbie couldn't leave it out of the team.

Cheers

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Yeah, I prefer Matt Todd over Sam Cane at 7 but he isn't on the team then I prefer to someone before Sam. Then it might be Messam at 7 and Luatua at 6...

I think that Luatua could play at 7, he has the ability to do so is a matter of taste. He's in a good time, not be left out of the team. It's like when Robbie Deans chose JOC to play at wing when he's playing at first 5/8 in Western Force.

Robbie had many good players in that position but JOC was in a good time, then Robbie had to make a place for him in the team, JOC couldn't be out of the team.

Cheers



Well, Cruden is not exactly God or Dan Carter, he's a mere mortal. I don't see much difference between Cruden and Barrett, the only one who is at a higher level in that position is Dan Carter, the others first 5/8 are in the same echelon.

Why don't you like Cane? He's proven himself so many times, I genuinely don't know how someone can still have doubts about him. Do you not watch matches and rate players based on how many times they get mentioned in newspaper articles or something?

 

[nickdnz]

I told you, I prefer Matt Todd over Cane, I think Cane isn't better than Todd and I don't understand why Cane is selected and Todd is ignored.

I don't remember what position JOC started, if it was wing or fullback, but it was because he was in a good moment and Robbie couldn't leave it out of the team.

Cheers

Then we should probably include Cruden at prop, he's just too good to leave out.

 

[Jaguares]

Why don't you like Cane? He's proven himself so many times, I genuinely don't know how someone can still have doubts about him. Do you not watch matches and rate players based on how many times they get mentioned in newspaper articles or something?

He has started a few games and hasn't had the level of Luatua which suggests to many that should start before Messam. He's good but I think that Matt Todd could even surpass if he had the same opportunities.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

He has started a few games and hasn't had the level of Luatua which suggests to many that should start before Messam. He's good but I think that Matt Todd could even surpass if he had the same opportunities.

You're grossly underestimating how well Cane has played. You just need to check the stats to see that Cane is almost always in the top two for tackle made and breakdown arrivals. He does a huge amount of work and has outplayed his opposition in all his big matches. I think you're paying too much attention to open field play. These aren't backs we're assessing, they're loose forwards. They have more jobs than just caring the ball and offloading.

 

[Aspry]

Imhoff is better than Camacho. I'd thought that the great finish to skin Halfpenny last November would have confirmed this, certainly none of the Pumas other wingers would have got remotely near scoring that try. However sadly not and the general Argentine fan still obsess about gutsiness over talent. Hopefully whoever the new foreign coach who is appointed can bring an attitude and culture change into a winning one and stop boasting about spirited defeats to the All Blacks when they should be focusing on fixing their current losing records against the likes of Ireland, Scotland, Australia and England, sides they are capable of beating yet have so often lost to under Phelan.

Well I've to agree that Imhoff is better at finishing offensive plays than Camacho and he already has showed his great skills when running but we've to remember we're going to play against the strongest side of Rugby and like it or not we're going to spend most of the time defending instead of attacking. So, I think that at least in this kind of game a player like Camacho would be more useful. Imhoff isn't really a strong defender, sometimes it looks like he's afraid of tackle the opponents and Camacho in the other hand is pretty good at it. I remember him taking down heavy players.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Vamos, vamos, los Pumas! A tough ask but with a ton of luck it has to happen sometime? Right?

 

[Pampas]

Well I've to agree that Imhoff is better at finishing offensive plays than Camacho and he already has showed his great skills when running but we've to remember we're going to play against the strongest side of Rugby and like it or not we're going to spend most of the time defending instead of attacking. So, I think that at least in this kind of game a player like Camacho would be more useful. Imhoff isn't really a strong defender, sometimes it looks like he's afraid of tackle the opponents and Camacho in the other hand is pretty good at it. I remember him taking down heavy players.

Offensive wise, Imhoff is head and shoulders above the rest, and probably will become the best winger since Nani Corletto, but right now, i think Camacho is the best overall. He is very good defending and is one of the few players who is strongh enough to break some tackles. He proved his value in many games of the current and the past RC editions.
Anyway, I believe no one doubts that Imhoff and Camacho are our two starting wings.

 

[Aspry]

Offensive wise, Imhoff is head and shoulders above the rest, and probably will become the best winger since Nani Corletto, but right now, i think Camacho is the best overall. He is very good defending and is one of the few players who is strongh enough to break some tackles. He proved his value in many games of the current and the past RC editions.
Anyway, I believe no one doubts that Imhoff and Camacho are our two starting wings.

Agreed.

Although it shouldn't be a topic to disscuss right now since Camacho is injured so Imhoff will start the game anyways

 

[ABs2011]

He has started a few games and hasn't had the level of Luatua which suggests to many that should start before Messam. He's good but I think that Matt Todd could even surpass if he had the same opportunities.

I agree with Invictus and Nick, but thought I would add that Todd had his chances to impress before Cane and unfortunately did not impress enough. Cane has proved himself, he has stepped up in place of Richie and excelled, and at this stage will always be a first choice over Todd.

I struggle to see what people are seeing in Barrett over Cruden. I like Barrett, think he will be a very good player in the future but at this point in time Cruden has the experience, the history of leading winning side, and a better all round game than Barrett. Better goal kicker, better in game kicker, better passer, better vision, better control of the game. The one thing I believe Barrett has over Cruden is his ability to break through a tackle. I believe people have gotten a bit excoriated over Barrett on one good game though. Cruden on the other hand has won two Super Rugby Championships in a row and never lost an AB test that he has started.

 

[ABs2011]

What's everyone's thoughts for the AB team?

Interesting selections will be at:
10 - my guess is Cruden to start if fit - Barrett on the bench.
6 - Tricky one as it looks like Messam will be open side cover so will they play him off the bench? Thinking he will start and switch over to 7 when Luatua comes on 2nd half.
2 - Wondering if they will revert back to Horey after Coles didn't set the world alight last game?

Any other contentious positions?

My guess:

New Zealand:1.Tony Woodcock, 2.Andrew Hore, 3.Owen Franks, 4.Brodie Retallick, 5.Samuel Whitelock, 6.Liam Messam, 7.Sam Cane, 8.Kieran Read (captain), 9.Aaron Smith, 10.Aaron Cruden, 11.Julian Savea, 12.Ma'a Nonu, 13.Conrad Smith, 14.Ben Smith, 15.Israel Dagg.

Reserves: 16.Dane Coles 17.Wyatt Crockett, 18.Ben Franks, 19.Jeremy Thrush, 20.Steven Luatua, 21.Tawera Kerr-Barlow, 22.Beauden Barrett, 23.Charles Piutau.

Not to bad if I do say so myself Starting team spot on but got the front rowers wrong in the reserves.

ABs team to face Argentina:
All Blacks: 15. Israel Dagg, 14. Ben Smith, 13. Conrad Smith, 12. Ma'a Nonu, 11. Julian Savea, 10. Aaron Cruden, 9. Aaron Smith, 8. Kieran Read (c), 7. Sam Cane, 6. Liam Messam, 5. Sam Whitelock, 4. Brodie Retallick, 3. Owen Franks, 2. Andrew Hore, 1. Tony Woodcock. Reserves: 16. Keven Mealamu, 17. Wyatt Crockett, 18. Charlie Faumuina, 19. Jeremy Thrush, 20. Steven Luatua, 21. Tawera Kerr-Barlow, 22. Beauden Barrett, 23. Charles Piutau.

 

[ABs2011]

Bit of a conundrum with Kieran Read falling ill. Talk he won't make the field so where do the ABs go from here.?? Obviously Messam moves to 8 and Luatua starts at 6 but without loose forward cover in the squad I guess this means that Coles comes on to the bench? and him and Thrush cover the loose? Will certainly be interesting if Read doesn't recover.

 

[jessta]

Oooo thats a bit of a pickle. No time to call a replacement in?

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

Oooo thats a bit of a pickle. No time to call a replacement in?

Not really. This is why you have a 30-man squad.

 

[ABs2011]

Not really. This is why you have a 30-man squad.

Only a 28 man squad. And there in lies the problem. They took 5 loosies (as you would in a 28 man squad):

Loose forwards: Sam Cane, Steven Luatua, Richie McCaw, Liam Messam and Kieran Read.

One is already out (McCaw) and now maybe Read. So only left with three - so of course its an issue - they have no specialist loose forward bench cover, that's the whole point!.

Oooo thats a bit of a pickle. No time to call a replacement in?

The problem as I understand it is that they took McCaw with them hoping he will be good to go for SA. As a result they were short one looise to begin with. I suspect (but I don't know) that if they brought in someone as cover then the player that drops out wouldn't be able to play in SA. Clearly they wont want to drop McCaw or Read so I'm not sure cover is an option at this stage. Would love it if someone clarified the rules though...

 

[hjklhjkl]

Bit of a conundrum with Kieran Read falling ill.

Goddammit Suzie!!!

:lol:

 

[jessta]

Not really. This is why you have a 30-man squad.

mate when every loosie in your squad is not available not matter what size the squad is, you have to call in a replacement.