[2013 EOYT] New Zealand

[smartcooky]

Weepu is also a bit slow because he deliberately slows the game down. He can be incredibly frustrating to watch at times. This sort of tactic is fine of you want to play "10 man rugby" (or the conditions are very poor), but his style of play doesn't suit the current AB's game-plan (which involves re-cycling and delivering the ball as quickly as possible...).

This.

The way the AB's are playing the game this year has moved on from last year. It requires quick recycling of tackled ball, a scrumhalf with hand-speed and a long, accurate pass, and a quick thinking 1st 5/8. Weepu does not fit the piocture here.

I don't have a problem with this squad or the selection of Luke Whitelock and Joe Moody. I'd rather be finding out now if these players are up to this level, than next year against England and in the RC.

 

[Chikwa]

As much as i would admit that TKB has been average on attack with the chances he's got. I would argue he's been a step or three above A Smith on Defence and on that alone he's worth keeping around atleast until TJ is up to scratch.

He deff takes the wrong options at times... i suspect he is under alot of pressure as the other headless chook that usually runs the show seem to get it right more often that not.

I still am not a A Smith fan I wont make any apologies for it so dont ask for them.

Also agree about Whitelock that guy is a waste of space in this team. On the other hand i reckon they cant be seen to be handing a 20 year old Ardie an easy ride.... look at the other pet project that turned to crap to see the end result of that.

Headless chook you are very funny.Laughter is good medicine for the heart! Who is the other pet project?It will be very difficult to replace Aron smith.He had a poor second half against the wallabies and he made us lose a sure try when he either went for glory or saw an opening that only he could see, but otherwise he has generally been outstanding .This was even the case against the Springboks at Eden park when the scrum or the forwards were on the back foot.The quick ball that he was picked for has been missing because he has fancied himself as a bit of a runner.

 

[jessta]

As much as i would admit that TKB has been average on attack with the chances he's got. I would argue he's been a step or three above A Smith on Defence and on that alone he's worth keeping around atleast until TJ is up to scratch.

He deff takes the wrong options at times... i suspect he is under alot of pressure as the other headless chook that usually runs the show seem to get it right more often that not.

I still am not a A Smith fan I wont make any apologies for it so dont ask for them.

Also agree about Whitelock that guy is a waste of space in this team. On the other hand i reckon they cant be seen to be handing a 20 year old Ardie an easy ride.... look at the other pet project that turned to crap to see the end result of that.

who you referring too isaia toeava?

hansens looking at whitelock as no8 cover to read however with the versatility to cover other backrow positions. he would make the most useless no 8 (his 1m run stat out of 4 runs in the canterbury semi final highlights this for one).hansens requirements scream out victor vito or brad shields. i think vitos dropping has potentially finally unleashed the beast inside him, only way to find out if he could bring that to ab level would be to give him another go. this whitelock selection really does not sit right with me. going to be an interesting tour

 

[Chikwa]

This.

The way the AB's are playing the game this year has moved on from last year. It requires quick recycling of tackled ball, a scrumhalf with hand-speed and a long, accurate pass, and a quick thinking 1st 5/8. Weepu does not fit the piocture here.

I don't have a problem with this squad or the selection of Luke Whitelock and Joe Moody. I'd rather be finding out now if these players are up to this level, than next year against England and in the RC.

What criteria do AB's coaches pick players?
It's seems to me their under 20 performances are playing a big role even before they have proved themselves at ITM level and Super rugby.What message is being sent to those who are producing outstanding performances at ITM and super rugby level?!!!

 

[smartcooky]

There are a few things that some people are failing to take into account

1. This squad is 36 strong, which is four more than would usually be the case for an EOYT.

2. We are only playing three matches in Europe (France, England & Ireland) not four, with the extra game being against Japan.

3. Hansen signalled early, at the time the Japan match was organised, that it would be a second string All Blacks team

4. Given 3. he was going to have to select second string players for the squad.

With a regular squad size, and no match against Japan , I don't think Moody, Bird, Luke Whitelock or Thrush would have been picked.

I think well find some of those new guys making their test debuts against Japan.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I wasn't that impressed with Savea at the U20 WC.

But then I watched the Wellington vs Counties semi-final the other day.....

 

[Darwin]

This.

The way the AB's are playing the game this year has moved on from last year. It requires quick recycling of tackled ball, a scrumhalf with hand-speed and a long, accurate pass, and a quick thinking 1st 5/8. Weepu does not fit the piocture here.

I don't have a problem with this squad or the selection of Luke Whitelock and Joe Moody. I'd rather be finding out now if these players are up to this level, than next year against England and in the RC.

There are a few things that some people are failing to take into account

1. This squad is 36 strong, which is four more than would usually be the case for an EOYT.

2. We are only playing three matches in Europe (France, England & Ireland) not four, with the extra game being against Japan.

3. Hansen signalled early, at the time the Japan match was organised, that it would be a second string All Blacks team

4. Given 3. he was going to have to select second string players for the squad.

With a regular squad size, and no match against Japan , I don't think Moody, Bird, Luke Whitelock or Thrush would have been picked.

I think well find some of those new guys making their test debuts against Japan.

No-one is complaining because Hansen picked new players in the squad. If anything I think many would have liked to see more new players! People are questioning whether they picked the correct new players. I can think of half a dozen uncapped loose forwards who are far more deserving of selection than Luke Whitelock. Had Hansen and co. picked someone like Brad Shields or Ardie Savea I'm sure there would be far less complaints

That said I don't see why Joe Moody is there either. Plenty of better props. Admittedly most props seem to be TH props - but I actually think John Schwalger has looked good for Wellington (ok he may have just got injured) but Joe Moody? So strange.

It will be interesting to see whether you still think that when he is destroying the Wellington scrum this weekend

 

[nickdnz]

No-one is complaining because Hansen picked new players in the squad. If anything I think many would have liked to see more new players! People are questioning whether they picked the correct new players. I can think of half a dozen uncapped loose forwards who are far more deserving of selection than Luke Whitelock. Had Hansen and co. picked someone like Brad Shields or Ardie Savea I'm sure there would be far less complaints

It will be interesting to see whether you still think that when he is destroying the Wellington scrum this weekend

Meh - I think the Wellington scrum has probably had the most dominant scrum in the competition (which is very strange for Wellington). Schwalger and JTA have been very, very solid, certainly won their fair share of tight heads. I wasn't suprised with what happened to the Auckland scrum as I rate Angus Ta'avao as one of the worst scrummaging props playing in the ITM Cup - I said as much when the Blues were getting decimated in the scrum earlier in the year.

It's not really Moody's scrummaging that I have a problem with either (in fact I agree Moody and Laulala have been very good in that department) - but Moody just doesn't offer much else. He is often stopped very quickly in contact (much like Owen Franks) but he doesn't offer extreme physicality in the tight like Franks, and he doesn't do as much work in the loose as other props either. I'm not saying he's bad, I've just found him pretty underwhelming. Laulala has impressed me more of the two Canterbury props.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Meh - I think the Wellington scrum has probably had the most dominant scrum in the competition (which is very strange for Wellington). Schwalger and JTA have been very, very solid, certainly won their fair share of tight heads. I wasn't suprised with what happened to the Auckland scrum as I rate Angus Ta'avao as one of the worst scrummaging props playing in the ITM Cup - I said as much when the Blues were getting decimated in the scrum earlier in the year.

It's not really Moody's scrummaging that I have a problem with either (in fact I agree Moody and Laulala have been very good in that department) - but Moody just doesn't offer much else. He is often stopped very quickly in contact (much like Owen Franks) but he doesn't offer extreme physicality in the tight like Franks, and he doesn't do as much work in the loose as other props either. I'm not saying he's bad, I've just found him pretty underwhelming. Laulala has impressed me more of the two Canterbury props.

I don't know if there's much point in comparing Moody to tight heads in the competition, because at the end of the day the selectors weren't going to pick another tight head.

Comparing Moody to Schwalger is fair enough. Moody, of course, is five years younger than Schwalger, and even if the selectors considered Schwalger to be a better player, at the end of they they'll see Moody as a better long term option. Schwalger is the Saia Fainga'a of New Zealand for me, meaning he gets the nickname Gormless for seemingly having no clue as to what's going on around him.

 

[Darwin]

Meh - I think the Wellington scrum has probably had the most dominant scrum in the competition (which is very strange for Wellington). Schwalger and JTA have been very, very solid, certainly won their fair share of tight heads. I wasn't suprised with what happened to the Auckland scrum as I rate Angus Ta'avao as one of the worst scrummaging props playing in the ITM Cup - I said as much when the Blues were getting decimated in the scrum earlier in the year.

It's not really Moody's scrummaging that I have a problem with either (in fact I agree Moody and Laulala have been very good in that department) - but Moody just doesn't offer much else. He is often stopped very quickly in contact (much like Owen Franks) but he doesn't offer extreme physicality in the tight like Franks, and he doesn't do as much work in the loose as other props either. I'm not saying he's bad, I've just found him pretty underwhelming. Laulala has impressed me more of the two Canterbury props.

There is no doubt that the Wellington scrum has been good this season, but I certainly don't think it has been the most dominant in the competition. I think the Canterbury scrum has been much better (though we will probably get a better idea of their relative strength next Saturday). Stats certainly don't tell the whole picture come scrum time, but statistically speaking Canterbury has had the far better scrum. According to scrum.com Wellington has won 61/71 (86%) of there own scrums. Canterbury has won 109/116 (94%). It is on opposition scrums that Canterbury really excel though - opposition sides only won 57/76 (75%) of scrums against Canterbury (in contrast opposition teams have won 81/94 - 86% - of scrums against Wellington). Again stats certainly don't tell the whole story come scrum-time, but the stats make pretty interesting reading.

I don't actually rate Laulala that highly at scrum-time - he does the job, but Moody is by far the more destructive scrummager (though you would expect that from a LH prop). In terms of around the park I agree Moody isn't that effective with ball in hand. He is improving, but Owen Franks is a pretty good comparison there. However the rest of his work around the field has impressed me in recent weeks. He has a good work-rate and makes his tackles, but what really impresses me is the way he smashes into the breakdown. He moves bodies at the breakdown as well as any prop in the country, which is a prime requisite for an AB's tight forward in my opinion. Obviously he hasn't really proven himself at Super Rugby level, but I can see why the AB's selectors would be interested in him. Laulala is good ball runner, but his work-rate is pretty average, and he is slow one defense (so misses quite a few tackles..)

 

[Big Ewis]

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_8981795,00.html

I quote:
"The aim of the tour is to further develop our game structures, our skills sets and our individual players," Hansen said.


"We will be looking to use the tour to take ourselves beyond where we are at the moment."

Uhhmmm....guys, please, like...tell them not to do that. Tell them they're at a fine level now and to carry on staying at that level...

 

[nickdnz]

There is no doubt that the Wellington scrum has been good this season, but I certainly don't think it has been the most dominant in the competition. I think the Canterbury scrum has been much better (though we will probably get a better idea of their relative strength next Saturday). Stats certainly don't tell the whole picture come scrum time, but statistically speaking Canterbury has had the far better scrum. According to scrum.com Wellington has won 61/71 (86%) of there own scrums. Canterbury has won 109/116 (94%). It is on opposition scrums that Canterbury really excel though - opposition sides only won 57/76 (75%) of scrums against Canterbury (in contrast opposition teams have won 81/94 - 86% - of scrums against Wellington). Again stats certainly don't tell the whole story come scrum-time, but the stats make pretty interesting reading.

I don't actually rate Laulala that highly at scrum-time - he does the job, but Moody is by far the more destructive scrummager (though you would expect that from a LH prop). In terms of around the park I agree Moody isn't that effective with ball in hand. He is improving, but Owen Franks is a pretty good comparison there. However the rest of his work around the field has impressed me in recent weeks. He has a good work-rate and makes his tackles, but what really impresses me is the way he smashes into the breakdown. He moves bodies at the breakdown as well as any prop in the country, which is a prime requisite for an AB's tight forward in my opinion. Obviously he hasn't really proven himself at Super Rugby level, but I can see why the AB's selectors would be interested in him. Laulala is good ball runner, but his work-rate is pretty average, and he is slow one defense (so misses quite a few tackles..)

Lies, damned lies and statistics!

I'm not suprised Canterbury has that good a record. However in their match earlier this year Wellington won all 7 of their scrums while Canterbury lost 2 of their 12 scrums. I think its probably a more fair indication when you consider certain players have been out with injury for games this season. Either way I think it will be very competitive - I can't see either side hurting the other at scrum time like Canterbury vs Auckland.

 

[smartcooky]

There is no doubt that the Wellington scrum has been good this season, but I certainly don't think it has been the most dominant in the competition. I think the Canterbury scrum has been much better (though we will probably get a better idea of their relative strength next Saturday). Stats certainly don't tell the whole picture come scrum time, but statistically speaking Canterbury has had the far better scrum. According to scrum.com Wellington has won 61/71 (86%) of there own scrums. Canterbury has won 109/116 (94%). It is on opposition scrums that Canterbury really excel though - opposition sides only won 57/76 (75%) of scrums against Canterbury (in contrast opposition teams have won 81/94 - 86% - of scrums against Wellington). Again stats certainly don't tell the whole story come scrum-time, but the stats make pretty interesting reading.

You might want to be a bit careful if those stats are just this year's ITM Cup. Remember that the two teams are only guaranteed to have played six of their 10 matches against the same opponents. They also play cross-pool matches and not necessarily agianst the same teams

Differing Cross Pool Matches

Wellington v Northland & Hawkes Bay

Canterbury v Tasman, Otago

 

[Bada-Bing!]

So from the All Blacks squad announced is this a possible starting lineup v Japan?

1. Crockett
2. Coles
3. Faumuina
4. Romano
5. Bird
6. Luatua
7. Cane
8. Messam

9. Kerr-Barlow
10. Carter (captain)

11. Halai
12. Saili
13. Ben Smith
14. Piutau
15. Taylor.

16. Hore
17. Moody
18. Ben Franks
19. Thrush
20. L. Whitelock
21. Perenara
22. Barrett
23. Crotty

 

[Bada-Bing!]

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_8981795,00.html

I quote:
"The aim of the tour is to further develop our game structures, our skills sets and our individual players," Hansen said.


"We will be looking to use the tour to take ourselves beyond where we are at the moment."

Uhhmmm....guys, please, like...tell them not to do that. Tell them they're at a fine level now and to carry on staying at that level...

Agreed.

It's funny reading All Black fans comments on this page, when the rest of the teams are playing catch up at the level they are currently playing at and they are irritated that the likes of Luke Whitelock are being picked. Is this guy really going to be anywhere near the squad come RWC 2015 when you have Jerome Kaino returning next year? At least your coach isn't picking the likes of Tom Johnson (England) who is nowhere near international class and is 30.

Right now All Blacks are well set; they only really need to worry about the hooker position in the next two years.

 

[Big Ewis]

Agreed.

It's funny reading All Black fans comments on this page, when the rest of the teams are playing catch up at the level they are currently playing at and they are irritated that the likes of Luke Whitelock are being picked. Is this guy really going to be anywhere near the squad come RWC 2015 when you have Jerome Kaino returning next year? At least your coach isn't picking the likes of Tom Johnson (England) who is nowhere near international class and is 30.

Right now All Blacks are well set; they only really need to worry about the hooker position in the next two years.

mmmmyezzz....
I had another look at that third Bledisloe, hovered over the match...NZ is unbelievably good this year, and I really do mean this following bit (as way over-the-top as it will sound):
God has blessed us with the All-Blacks. Literally. It's a blessing that a group of men, players and coaches, would put in that sort of work so that they would be head and shoulder above everybody else. It's literally amazing. Not amazing as in "well would you look at that !".....I mean amazing as in, how is this possible ?! It's more than candy for the eyes, it's caviar for the........thumbs.

On those tries (still third Bledisloe), I think all 4 of them, NZ are easily punching through the defense. The one Cruden scores when he comes right back into the scheme and runs it in honestly looks like the whole play was setup and they'd practiced, both the Wallabies on defense and the Blacks on attack before the match for hours, that exact play. Like some choreography...
The one where they go way wide to the right to Kieran Read and he seriously jogs it in, he's part of 3 WIDE OPEN All-Blacks having a nice walk in the park, wide open....THREE GUYS.

And ppl would say "well they were at home and that was against the Wallabies who've given up tons of tries this TRC".
Yeah, okay, try a Read score over the Boks in S.A. with 14 men, and he's not even close to being tackled he jogs it in...

What a fkn team...they're playing much better as a team this time around, as opposed to having a better or worse roster of players than some other era in comparison...they don't have a Lomu or a Umaga or a Howlett or a Jeff Wilson these days, but the quality of team play...A-MA-ZING.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

So from the All Blacks squad announced is this a possible starting lineup v Japan?

1. Crockett
2. Coles
3. Faumuina
4. Romano
5. Bird
6. Luatua
7. Cane
8. Messam

9. Kerr-Barlow
10. Carter (captain)

11. Halai
12. Saili
13. Ben Smith
14. Piutau
15. Taylor.

16. Hore
17. Moody
18. Ben Franks
19. Thrush
20. L. Whitelock
21. Perenara
22. Barrett
23. Crotty

i would say barrett to start instead off carter and luke whitelock instead off cane

 

[Bada-Bing!]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/9305979/Hansen-gets-mix-right-for-northern-tour

Interesting opinion for All Blacks fans.

 

[Patchey]

Where do people see Taylor fitting in? He played at fullback for Canterbury in the ITM last year but has been a centre/fly half for the All Black in his performances so far. Presumably he'll get at least one more cap, possibly a start, on this tour but where?

 

[donmcdazzle]

Where do people see Taylor fitting in? He played at fullback for Canterbury in the ITM last year but has been a centre/fly half for the All Black in his performances so far. Presumably he'll get at least one more cap, possibly a start, on this tour but where?

I'm not sure he will start a game. He should be on the bench for a couple though if Barrett/Cruden/Carter are rested. He is handy to have as 10/12 cover. I still think he lacks a bit of zip at international level but he does the basics very well so he is decent to have there.

I can't see him at fullback (barring injuries). We have Dagg, Smith, Piutau, Barrett and even probably Jane ahead of him in the fullback pecking order.