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[2013 EOYT] New Zealand

Larksea said:
did I say he got to 80 tests by having a good game every once in a while? no. I'm obviously not talking about his whole carrier, maybe I should have been more specific. I would say after the world cup hes been a mixed bag, even world cup year he was a bit hit and miss. Hes had quiet games, bad games and the odd great game to hold his place helped by the fact hes in what is a dominant and winning team generally.

Nonu is a special case because of any player in the current squad he is the one player whos super rugby form has been ignored and much better players in super rugby have been ignored for Nonu to retain his starting role. Be honest on super rugby form would Nonu even have made the squad?

now obviously he has not "let the all blacks down" hes generally done a good job.

but shouldn't we wonder how well the likes of Saili, Horrell, Aki would do if they were given the chance - all were better than Nonu in super rugby by some margin. Add Tom Taylor too and even Sean Treeby had better showings for the highlanders than Nonu.

Nonu established himself during a period post Tana, Mauger & Luke McAlister leaving where options where thin, he definitely solved a problem. Now we have options with genuine potential and worth. but Nonu has an absolute strangle hold on the 12 spot.

I know its not black and white, the reality is that Nonu has a specific set of skills, in particular his footwork and running game that provide an important balance to the All Black Backline in such a way that you can't just pull him out and put someone else in and keep the same gameplan, hes just such a unique player. But time time will come where we will have to use someone else, no one can play forever.
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I sort of get what you are saying here and don't necessarily disagree with the lack of form in Super rugby, but you can't just apply that to Nonu and ignore it for others. What has Luke Whitelock done at Super or even ITM cup level to deserve a spot? Ditto for Joe Moody. Nonu has 80 tests and has always gone well for the AB's. I don't like the guy as a person, he has been a ******** every time I have seen him in a social situation, but he is head and shoulders our best 12. Crotty isn't fit to lace his boots.

The bigger issue for me is how many average Canterbury players got in. If these guys were at other provinces they would never have had a look in. Did Crotty really have a better season than Horrell? or Aki? And I don't even like Aki but I can't see Crotty getting picked if he played exactly the same as he did for the Crusaders and Canterbury but for the Highlanders in Super and a middling team like Taranaki in ITM.
 
Larksea said:
did I say he got to 80 tests by having a good game every once in a while? no. I'm obviously not talking about his whole carrier, maybe I should have been more specific. I would say after the world cup hes been a mixed bag, even world cup year he was a bit hit and miss. Hes had quiet games, bad games and the odd great game to hold his place helped by the fact hes in what is a dominant and winning team generally.

Nonu is a special case because of any player in the current squad he is the one player whos super rugby form has been ignored and much better players in super rugby have been ignored for Nonu to retain his starting role. Be honest on super rugby form would Nonu even have made the squad?

now obviously he has not "let the all blacks down" hes generally done a good job.

but shouldn't we wonder how well the likes of Saili, Horrell, Aki would do if they were given the chance - all were better than Nonu in super rugby by some margin. Add Tom Taylor too and even Sean Treeby had better showings for the highlanders than Nonu.

Nonu established himself during a period post Tana, Mauger & Luke McAlister leaving where options where thin, he definitely solved a problem. Now we have options with genuine potential and worth. but Nonu has an absolute strangle hold on the 12 spot.

I know its not black and white, the reality is that Nonu has a specific set of skills, in particular his footwork and running game that provide an important balance to the All Black Backline in such a way that you can't just pull him out and put someone else in and keep the same gameplan, hes just such a unique player. But time time will come where we will have to use someone else, no one can play forever.
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I guess that this is an issue you have when you are within a couple of years of a World Cup. What you don't want to be doing is throwing in youngsters left, right and centre and expect them to gel immediately on an International scale. If you're going to do it, I guess the ideal opportunity considering the time frame would be for the Automn Internationals, but I don't see how you cant pick Nonu on current form. Combinations need to be worked on over time and although I understand where you are coming from to some extent in terms of your philosophy, Nonu for me is still the glue that holds that New Zeland back-line together.
 
Larksea said:
did I say he got to 80 tests by having a good game every once in a while? no. I'm obviously not talking about his whole carrier, maybe I should have been more specific. I would say after the world cup hes been a mixed bag, even world cup year he was a bit hit and miss. Hes had quiet games, bad games and the odd great game to hold his place helped by the fact hes in what is a dominant and winning team generally.

Nonu is a special case because of any player in the current squad he is the one player whos super rugby form has been ignored and much better players in super rugby have been ignored for Nonu to retain his starting role. Be honest on super rugby form would Nonu even have made the squad?

now obviously he has not "let the all blacks down" hes generally done a good job.

but shouldn't we wonder how well the likes of Saili, Horrell, Aki would do if they were given the chance - all were better than Nonu in super rugby by some margin. Add Tom Taylor too and even Sean Treeby had better showings for the highlanders than Nonu.

Nonu established himself during a period post Tana, Mauger & Luke McAlister leaving where options where thin, he definitely solved a problem. Now we have options with genuine potential and worth. but Nonu has an absolute strangle hold on the 12 spot.

I know its not black and white, the reality is that Nonu has a specific set of skills, in particular his footwork and running game that provide an important balance to the All Black Backline in such a way that you can't just pull him out and put someone else in and keep the same gameplan, hes just such a unique player. But time time will come where we will have to use someone else, no one can play forever.
Click to expand...

I actually agree, form should matter over reputation every time. The issue with Nonu for us judging him as arm chair coaches, is that as you have rightly said, recently in S15 he has been awful, not a chance on that form that he should be in the 12 jersey. Yet the coaches still see something to make them believe once he pulls on the black jersey he'll perform, and so far he's not let them down. You've got to wonder how long this can keep going on though, sooner or later he will either translate his All Black form back into S15 (next two years will do nicely thank you :) ) or his slack S15 form will follow him into the All Blacks.

I think at the minute, Nonu is the best option. You've got to think the Blues coaches will be trying to get into him he can't keep this trend up, hopefully with backing from Hansen.

Excited to see the 'B' team in action against Japan, should seem some very excited young players looking to make their mark.
 
I don't think there is a bigger myth than that Nonu doesn't perform in Super Rugby. He was very good for the Hurricanes in 2011 and one of the best amongst a poor Blues team in 2012. His season this year with the Highlanders was horrible but their whole season was horrible. It wasn't his fault that they finished where they finished.

Either way he offers the All Blacks heaps. He is exactly the type of player we need at second-five (strong ball runner). Tom Taylor is probably our #2 12 and he just doesn't offer that.

I think looking at Nonu and Dagg yesterday is just more proof that reputation is more important than form.
 
donmcdazzle said:
I sort of get what you are saying here and don't necessarily disagree with the lack of form in Super rugby, but you can't just apply that to Nonu and ignore it for others. What has Luke Whitelock done at Super or even ITM cup level to deserve a spot? Ditto for Joe Moody. Nonu has 80 tests and has always gone well for the AB's. I don't like the guy as a person, he has been a ******** every time I have seen him in a social situation, but he is head and shoulders our best 12. Crotty isn't fit to lace his boots.

The bigger issue for me is how many average Canterbury players got in. If these guys were at other provinces they would never have had a look in. Did Crotty really have a better season than Horrell? or Aki? And I don't even like Aki but I can't see Crotty getting picked if he played exactly the same as he did for the Crusaders and Canterbury but for the Highlanders in Super and a middling team like Taranaki in ITM.
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The worrying aspect of the current selection is the new players being selected without having ever demonstrated that they are better than their peers at super rubgy level.How is victor vito feeling right now?
 
Chikwa said:
Guys is Luke white lock playing in this game Canterbury vs Wellington. Admittedly I have been drifting in and out of sleep!
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you wouldnt have thought so watching, his brother is ten folds better than him and brad shield also outplayed him. I just really dont understand this selection
 
Big Ewis said:
lol.
Is New Zealand secretly....TERRIFIED OF JAPAN ?!!

*insert dramatic face with eyes wide open*
(pix ain't workin no mo' on TRF...)
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I'm being a little bit cynical when I say Japan are probably paying the NZRU a fortune to play the ABs and they would want McCaw and Carter to play. The ABs 3rd XV could put 50 points past Japan, without the need for either of them. At the same time it can't hurt the ABs, as Carter has not played for 7 weeks and needs game time; also McCaw can test out the calf he strained last week to see it is fully healed for 40 minutes.
 
If Carter's playing, then it would be a good idea to have McCaw too, since Carter gets injured whenever he's expected to captain a game :) Off the top of my head, I recall that happening vs. Canada in the 2011 RWC, and vs. Italy in 2012 EotY tour.
 
The_Blindside said:
I'm being a little bit cynical when I say Japan are probably paying the NZRU a fortune to play the ABs and they would want McCaw and Carter to play. The ABs 3rd XV could put 50 points past Japan, without the need for either of them. At the same time it can't hurt the ABs, as Carter has not played for 7 weeks and needs game time; also McCaw can test out the calf he strained last week to see it is fully healed for 40 minutes.
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oh, no I think coach really genuinely does want Carter and McCaw to play. He wants them to try their hands on a mediocre team so they can get the engine started for the big challenges to come. But yes, obviously Japan had a "hefty load" to do with this test match, no question...or a loaded heft. Whichever sounds wronger and eviler.

Er.
 
The_Blindside said:
Joe Moody is out for up to 6 months after breaking his leg in the NPC final. Jeff Toomaga-Allen has been called up to replace him. According to Hansen:

"We've been quietly working away with a wee project with Jeff playing tighthead but actually doing some work on the loosehead. So he will come in as loosehead replacement for the tour."

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/9334086/Moody-requires-metal-plate-after-breaking-bone
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?????? Mr Hansen.I cannot find adequate words so perhaps symbols may best describe my bewilderment.
 
Not surprised Toomaga-Allen is called up. I'm a bit confused about what Hansen says about Toomaga-Allen being picked as a LH prop (has he even played on the LH side for Wellington?). I know they are trying to develop some young LH props, but I'm not sure why they seem so reluctant to play Ben Franks on the LH side? It sounds like they see Ben Franks as a TH and Toomaga-Allen as a LH - despite the fact they play on the opposite sides for the Canes!
 
a lack of depth in hooker is a worrying trend in NZ.. i'm hoping Coles can step up and stake his claim on the No.2 shirt
 

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