[2013 EOYT] England

[TRF_Olyy]

hey guys, I've got zero clue at all, but seeing how England keeps picking Youngs at 9, I'm guessing England as a whole has a SH deficiency. Or are the England authorities stubborn like they are when they pick Ashton on the wing, as a de facto type of decision ?
Are there, realistically, much better options than Youngs atm ?

Literally what's been discussed for the past 2(?) pages.... :huh:

 

[Big Ewis]

Literally what's been discussed for the past 2(?) pages.... :huh:

oh ok. Hope I'll find what I want up there, will read later.

 

[Peat]

A short answer is Yes to both. Yes England have deficiencies in the scrum-half position, and yes England seem blind to Youngs' strengths and weaknesses, although maybe that's changing with the selection of Dickson.

In fact, England have deficiencies in every position 9-13 and seem very unsure how best to use any of our options available in attack.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

A short answer is Yes to both. Yes England have deficiencies in the scrum-half position, and yes England seem blind to Youngs' strengths and weaknesses, although maybe that's changing with the selection of Dickson.

In fact, England have deficiencies in every position 9-13 and seem very unsure how best to use any of our options available in attack.

I wouldn't say we were deficient, we simply aren't willing to give uncapped players a go preferring instead to stick with players who are known, even if all we know is that they are crap. It's a mentality I don't understand because generally you don't take a risk with new players if you think it could make the team worse in that area. I don't see how England can realistically get much worse in the backs. We really don't have anything to lose by experimenting there now.

 

[j'nuh]

At his best I like him a lot but he has simply been far too erratic since the 2011 World Cup. Prior to that he looked like the next Will Genia. Now he looks like the next Harry Ellis, being honest. Incredibly bewildering when you come down to it. I get him looking dodgy when playing through a substantial pain barrier, but what's happened since then?

The way the Tigers make him play makes it no wonder he hasn't developed. That heads-up rugby we saw from him when he burst out on the scene just doesn't sit well with the type of rugby the Tigers play. So his running decreased in quantity, and then he got rusty so lost quality on it as well, whereas the frequency of box kicking sky rocketed. So sad, would have been interesting to see how he would be playing now had he grown with the Saints/Quins.

 

[Maverick1987]

I wouldn't say we were deficient, we simply aren't willing to give uncapped players a go preferring instead to stick with players who are known, even if all we know is that they are crap. It's a mentality I don't understand because generally you don't take a risk with new players if you think it could make the team worse in that area. I don't see how England can realistically get much worse in the backs. We really don't have anything to lose by experimenting there now.

Well with injuries Lancaster has 2 choices - barritt or an relatively inexperienced player

 

[glawsfan]

My starting team would be
Cole
Hartley
Wilson
Launchbury
Lawes
Wood
Robshaw
Vunipola
Care
Farrell
May
Twelvetrees
Joseph
Nowell
Brown

That leaves players like Morgan and M. Vunipola to come off the bench and make an impact. I'm not bothered out of Burrell or Twelvetrees being a Gloucester fan I don't think Twelvetrees is international quality but at the moment he's probably the best we have at 12. However May must play he's been performing well consistently now for a couple of years and has turned up in the big games in heineken cup and against the better aviva premiership teams his scoring record speaks for himself. I think him and Nowell would compliment eachother well and bring some variety to the backline that we missed in the Autumn. PLEASE NO ASHTON!

 

[ratsapprentice]

Slightly worried that you want to play two tightheads!

I've never thought that May will make the step up to international rugby tbh...
I guess he's earned a chance, but I really can't see him doing much.

Something that seems to have gone under the radar a little bit.... we've all assumed that Tomkins is going to be omitted.
Let's all hope he doesn't stay as one of Stuart's little surprises.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Tomkins is injured.
Why don't you think May could make the step up internationally?
I can't see anything in his game that'd suggest he couldn't.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Tomkins is injured, but I hope he is fully replaced rather than temporarily covered.

I haven't seen anything in his game to suggest he can.
He's also a bit headless at times - he's basically just that really awkward, fast kid that you used to play against in the U16's.

 

[welshglory]

I would look at bringing in Luke Arscott

 

[ratsapprentice]

What for?

 

[welshglory]

To replace Goode as back up fullback since Foden is out injured

 

[ratsapprentice]

Both Nowell and Watson are primarily FB's.

Arscott being added would just deprive Exeter of his services...

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Johnny May wouldn't have made it to even championship level if he was nothing more than the kid who runs past everyone else at U16.

 

[welshglory]

It's laughable that names like Elliot and Walker are being mentioned. They're above average club players at best. You guys really should have higher standards than that.

 

[ratsapprentice]

That's exactly what he is though... in open games he runs laterally and uses his pace to glide through gaps.
He's a good finisher too, but against organised defenses...? meh.

It's laughable that names like Elliot and Walker are being mentioned. They're above average club players at best. You guys really should have higher standards than that.

Elliot is a good club player.
Walker is a young club player with potential.

 

[welshglory]

Johnny May wouldn't have made it to even championship level if he was nothing more than the kid who runs past everyone else at U16.

Doesn't the fact that he continues to run past everyone at premiership and heineken cup level absolutely refute that statement.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

@ratsapprentice - He's good in broken field and has good footwork - for me he has something to offer as a winger. I don't agree with people who think he can be an international 13.
@Welshglory - what? You have to try players out to know what they're made of - Jamie Elliott is young and has showed talent and the same seems to be true of Walker although I personally am not suggesting he's the future for England. I don't see how you can talk bearing in mind some of the backs who have become involved with the Welsh set-up in the last two years.

Doesn't the fact that he continues to run past everyone at premiership and heineken cup level absolutely refute that statement.

No... My point is that he has always offered more than running in a straight line and whilst he can beat defenders with ease, you need a more balanced skillset with strong basics to even get near premiership level...you can't take those things for granted in a premiership player.

 

[welshglory]

Mate i'm not having a dig at England in the slightest.
That's quite a cheap comment from you to be honest. I'm just trying to be objective.

Walker and Elliot do not have what it takes. Tell me why you think they're good enough for England.
Yes they've shone some good form, but that shouldn't be enough to be selected for England. You should have real attributes that say you can add something at the top level.
There are a group of elite wingers in England and those two are nowhere near them and they never will be.
Even selecting them in the Saxons would just be a token call up to say to other aspiring players, "look all you have to do is play well at club level and you'll be selected, you don't actually have to be good enough".