[2013 EOYT] England

[ratsapprentice]

Thursday.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

So Joe Simpson played a MOTM performance on the weekend and was by all accounts terrific. Now, I can't exactly argue that he has made an irrefutable case based on a consistent level of performances, but our other scrum halfs are all pants anyway! Possible surprise inclusion in the EPS?

 

[ratsapprentice]

Him and Robson should be our Saxons SH's

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Purely objectively, not fishing for any particular answer, but what are the accepted ways in which Ben Youngs in ahead of other scrum halves? As objectively as possible, why do people think Lancaster prefers him?

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Purely objectively, not fishing for any particular answer, but what are the accepted ways in which Ben Youngs in ahead of other scrum halves? As objectively as possible, why do people think Lancaster prefers him?

He plays for Leicester and used to be good?

 

[ratsapprentice]

I don't understand it either.

At his best he has a decent kicking game and a pretty good running game.
At his best he still gives poor service - at worst he barely gives one at all.

 

[michaelbolton]

I don't understand it either.

At his best he has a decent kicking game and a pretty good running game.
At his best he still gives poor service - at worst he barely gives one at all.

But still a better pass than Care. Dickson cant kick which is Lancaster thing

 

[Maverick1987]

I don't understand it either.

At his best he has a decent kicking game and a pretty good running game.
At his best he still gives poor service - at worst he barely gives one at all.

His passing isn't that bad
He brings forwards around the corner well
He's got a very good running game not a pretty good one
He's unpredictable for defenses (care is the best at this though)

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I reckon it must come back to defence again, which is the only thing our coaches appear to give a damm about. (to be fair to him, Ben Youngs is very often there when you need him in defence)
My attempted hierarchy of our scrum halves across key areas which there will no doubt be disagreement with:

Kicking
1) Simpson
2) Youngs (his actual kicking skill, not his decisions of when to kick for which he would be rock bottom of the pile)
3) Dickson
4) Care

Service
1) Dickson
2) Simpson
3) Care
4) Youngs

Running
1) Care/Simpson
3) Youngs
4) Dickson

Defence
1) Youngs
2) Dickson
4) Care/Simpson - arguably Simmo is just too small, but he can read the game in defence as well as most.

Marshalling:
1) Dickson
2) Youngs/Care
4) Simpson

Another domain should be 'Tactics' but I wouldn't know where to begin as none of them are great. I welcome disagreement!

 

[ratsapprentice]

His passing isn't that bad
He brings forwards around the corner well
He's got a very good running game not a pretty good one
He's unpredictable for defenses (care is the best at this though)

His passing is that bad - he's supposed to be an international level half back.
Fair enough - his running game has ripped other teams apart before... it's been a while though, hasn't it?!
I don't agree he's unpredictable.

He also has terrible defensive stats - I compared a load of scrum halves statistics a while ago, and most of them had pretty much identical stats.
Except Ben's were really bad in comparison, I do concede that this isn't the most important factor for a SH... it should be bared in mind though.

Last season's Heineken Cup:

Danny Care - 17 tackles, 5 missed
Ben Youngs - 19 tackles, 13 missed
Lee Dickson - 31 tackles, 8 missed

 

[Peat]

I am guessing that Lancaster picks him for his kicking game, the threat of his breaking game and his ability to work a gainline with runners off of him. I think he probably also works to Lancaster's orders very well, considering his heavy use of the boot and rare use of the risky running.

At his best I like him a lot but he has simply been far too erratic since the 2011 World Cup. Prior to that he looked like the next Will Genia. Now he looks like the next Harry Ellis, being honest. Incredibly bewildering when you come down to it. I get him looking dodgy when playing through a substantial pain barrier, but what's happened since then?

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Too much weight put on/over-rehabilitation?

I agree that Youngs appears to be able to work a gainline but he's too predictable in the way he goes about it.
He doesn't appear able to do what I often see Care do which is to throw passes of unpredictable length to ball carrying forwards so that the defence can't know for certain who the carrier will be and line him up. Youngs always goes round the corner to the first man who is seen a mile away and duly lined up.

 

[Peat]

Are we sure the multiple choice of runners are there for England though? It's not something I've looked at too much but take Flood in the Italy game - hugely bereft of support runners. Our choice of support runners and the staticness of our runners has been noticeable for a while, if that extends to Youngs' options around the fringe then, yeah, it stands to reason that will limit his options. Or maybe it's down to Youngs' marshalling, I really don't know.

edit: In general, opposition fringe defences against Lancaster's England have looked really solid. We can puncture them when things go right and we have the right guys - in fact, we can do so really well - but any weaknesses and things go badly for us there. Everyone seems to be well organised to meet us there which I can't help but feel has something to do with a complete lack of threat out wide, both in terms of players waiting out there and distributors to get it there. If we stick with 36 at 12 and a back three that actually offer a threat, then maybe we'll see more space open up in the middle of the park. Having Croft back would be good too, but that's not happening anytime soon.

However - if we are relying on the back three to possess a threat out wide - then Mike Brown's a great player, but seems far more about footwork in narrow spaces than hitting lines out wide. Arguably we'd need a Daly or Tait to step in.

Which is why I'm now officially proposing that Mike Brown become England's new 10. Srsly.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Flood only had eyes for Tuilagi in that Italy game... his decision to only pass to Manu was farcical.
He had other options and chose to "give it to Manu" all day.

 

[Peat]

Flood only had eyes for Tuilagi in that Italy game... his decision to only pass to Manu was farcical.
He had other options and chose to "give it to Manu" all day.

I remember different. I remember Flood making a number of half-breaks and looking around for a support runner to take the ball and make a clean break only to see no one. Literally no one.

Also, it's not like "Give it to Manu" hasn't frequently been the standing order from the coaching staff in terms of game plan...

 

[ratsapprentice]

The difference being that he (almost literally) only passed it to Manu... as in he actually did not pass it to anyone else at any point in the game even when there were better options.
I think there may have been one or possibly even two passes to someone else.

 

[Crapspray]

I vividly remember Goode running straight into Flood and stopping him putting someone through the gap 5 yards out. Does that count as a support run?

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

The support play for England is terrible but also the speed with which we get the ball to the wings. Other sides (loads of club sides manage it) get the ball to a wing with the defence still trying to cover.

England pass so slowly the defence have already drifted across and the wingers don't have any space. It doesn't matter who is on the wing when they have no space!

Oh and kicking scrum halves should be banned! With youngs we just constantly kick away good possession.....then he finally passes to Farrell who....kicks the ball away again!!! W t f. England!

 

[ratsapprentice]

I agree, the quality of passing is poor.
Almost every single pass causes the receiver to check - depth possibly causing an issue here too.

Actually it does matter who is on the wing, if you can't supply your wingers with space you need wingers who can work without it.
For my money Nowell and Watson can do that.
Nowell through a mix of strength and quick feet and Watson through pace and really awkward stepping.

...Have you seen what Ashton does when confronted with defenders?

 

[Big Ewis]

hey guys, I've got zero clue at all, but seeing how England keeps picking Youngs at 9, I'm guessing England as a whole has a SH deficiency. Or are the England authorities stubborn like they are when they pick Ashton on the wing, as a de facto type of decision ?
Are there, realistically, much better options than Youngs atm ?
What would you say is the position with the deepest deficiency atm for England ? For France I'd say it's clearly 'tighthead'...yes we've got Mas now but even he's showing signs of tiring late this 2013 year in particular, and sure there's a young Slimani behind him, but then ??......too many good int'l TH props in the damn Top14.