[2013 EOYT] England

[Crapspray]

So I think as a whole France *experiment* in the real, dangerous sense of the term in that it's up to the individual player to show something on his own; while England already have a more limiting/guided plan for the youngsters they bring in and the insertion goes more smoothly and with less elusive/volatile effects on the long term.

While I agree England's gameplan is simple, I think the apparent safety is experimentation is more due to culture and coherency.

France spend bugger-all time together and appear to have no attachment to the national side or each other. They're playing under a coach who also seems to have no idea what sort of team he wants to play. As a result French experimentation looks to be more wild.

England in the last year or so have capped players like Yarde, Launchbury, and the Vunipola brothers all at the age of 21. The side they were brought into had/has nothing like the experience of France, but because there's a greater attachment to each other and the shirt the team is less disrupted. They're not playing alone.

If the relative inertia is lost in the backs then there'll be even more young players -potentially a 19 year-old and two 20 year-olds- brought in this coming Six Nations. They'll be around the 20-25th new caps under Lancaster in two years.

 

[ratsapprentice]

While I completely disagree with the idea that Walker and Elliot are "average" players I do agree that neither have really shown enough international potential yet.
Elliot is a very good all round winger who makes very few errors - he isn't the fastest or the biggest. There is nothing to say he wont figure out how to score tries against elite opposition despite this.
Walker is extremely raw - if we're honest we've barely seen him play. At this point he's basically just extremely quick - his speed alone shoots down the idea that he doesn't have potential.

In terms of selection, I think the forwards more or less pick themselves, although the inclusion of Ewers might add some much needed ball carrying off the bench- couldn't think of anyone I'd like to tackle less after 60 mins of rugby- his carrying reminds me of Alberts.

That's the first time I've seen him compared to Alberts... I definitely see that.
He's maybe not quite as powerful as Alberts but he's still got that aura of "****, I have to tackle him again?!"
Not ready for the full squad yet, but is definitely my favorite for the Saxons role.


Also, not that it's a surprise but it's been widely reported via an "official leak" that Ford will replace Flood.

 

[Patchey]

Lots if chatter today about George Ford coming to take Toby Flood's place in the EPS.

Having a little think and I reckon the forwards will stay roughly the same, maybe Wallace in. And the backs will look something like this,

Youngs, Dickson, Wigglesworth (Care out)

Farrell, Burns, Ford (Flood out)

Twelvetrees, Barritt, Eastmond, Burrell, Tuilagi

Brown, Foden, Yarde(?), Nowell, Watson, Daly


I think I read somewhere that guys who are scheduled to return from injury during the Six Nations period will be included, hence Tuilagi and Yarde. I can see Care being dropped but don't think JJ will make it back. Possibly he'll be on stand by. With injured wingers I don't see how Nowell and Watson can be ignored.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Regardless of his motives, I'm inclined to agree with welshglory, to a certain extent, when it comes to walker and Elliot. Their both promising players but I don't feel they are quite ready to be back ups YET, and without the injuries to yards/wade I doubt we would even be mentioning them

That was the whole point, though.
We were saying how we've got a number of talented back three players for the future.

 

[Patchey]

That was the whole point, though.
We were saying how we've got a number of talented back three players for the future.

I think some people may have missed the reasoning behind first mentioning them.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I think some people may have missed the reasoning behind first mentioning them.

I agree, no one wants them in the national team now. They are just players to watch in the future.

I can't see past Watson, May and nowell for the moment. See which two preform best in training and start them.


Or help France by starting the two worst wingers strettle and Ashton. They remind me of our centre pairing we had of noone and tindall!

 

[Patchey]

I think Watson is impossible to ignore and will start. May I think is unlikely and will suffer because of Glos' poor form. I'd love Nowell to have a go.


Here's a lovely quote regarding Alex Good from Jeremy Guscott's column:

Hi, I don't doubt Goode's rugby ability, we just haven't been blown away by his play in an England shirt - it just hasn't clicked for him. I don't believe he deserves a spot in the centres ahead of the options available but I wish he played stand-off more at club level, that's somewhere I could see him.

 

[Aristodemus]

Somewhere I could see Goode playing is for the dog and duck.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I think Nowell and Watson are the clear standouts.

Can they...:
Defend - yes
Beat defenders - yes
Compete in the air - yes
Kick - yes
Run support lines - yes
Pass - yes
Finish - yes

Ashton can only really do two of those - run support lines and finish, and even then he's looked ropey for as long as we can remember.
Strettle can add the abilty to defend and kick to that.

I also like the balance of a Nowell, Brown and Watson back three.
Very good aerial ability, with two guys who have an innate ability to beat defenders in the tight through their strength (Nowell and Brown) even if we don't create any space for them.
We also shouldn't forget that Yarde seems confident he's going to be fit in time.

 

[Patchey]

Somewhere I could see Goode playing is for the dog and duck.

I think what JG forgets is that when Goode first moved to Sarries he WAS a 10 and they moved him to 15 because he wasn't good enough.

I think Nowell and Watson are the clear standouts.

Can they...:
Defend - yes
Beat defenders - yes
Compete in the air - yes
Kick - yes
Run support lines - yes
Pass - yes
Finish - yes

Ashton can only really do two of those - run support lines and finish, and even then he's looked ropey for as long as we can remember.
Strettle can add the abilty to defend and kick to that.

I also like the balance of a Nowell, Brown and Watson back three.
Very good aerial ability, with two guys who have an innate ability to beat defenders in the tight through their strength (Nowell and Brown) even if we don't create any space for them.

Totally agree. But lets not forget that JSD was a clear standout for about a decade and only ever managed ten or so caps. Until Nowell and Watson get a few caps I'm going to remain cynical about their prospects.

 

[glawsfan]

I think Nowell and Watson are the clear standouts.

Can they...:
Defend - yes
Beat defenders - yes
Compete in the air - yes
Kick - yes
Run support lines - yes
Pass - yes
Finish - yes

Ashton can only really do two of those - run support lines and finish, and even then he's looked ropey for as long as we can remember.
Strettle can add the abilty to defend and kick to that.

I also like the balance of a Nowell, Brown and Watson back three.
Very good aerial ability, with two guys who have an innate ability to beat defenders in the tight through their strength (Nowell and Brown) even if we don't create any space for them.
We also shouldn't forget that Yarde seems confident he's going to be fit in time.

I'm sorry but Watson ahead of May?

Watson has only been playing for about a year and has only impressed for a few of months. May has been playing well consistantly now for a few years and has a better scoring record than Watson and all round game. He has earnt a chance more than Watson.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I've said it before... I just can't see May making an impact at international level in this England team.

 

[Patchey]

See the point about JSD, consistantly good performances don't count for anything if you're a Gloucester winger...

 

[ratsapprentice]

We'll see (if he gets picked)... I think his lateral running will see him get turned over and I'm not sold on his defense.
Not saying he doesn't deserve a chance, but I cannot see him cementing a position.

 

[Aristodemus]

Don't you think dropping Watson and Nowell in at the deep end of an away 6N opener in France is a bit much? I like them both but that is very much a sink or swim scenario.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Don't you think dropping Watson and Nowell in at the deep end of an away 6N opener in France is a bit much? I like them both but that is very much a sink or swim scenario.

Well they couldn't play any worse than Ashton or strettle. If they miss tackles and give away penalties, drop balls and mess up they would still be better than Ashton and strettle

 

[ratsapprentice]

Only if you plan to not take into account that it's a potentially difficult game, regardless of whether it's their first cap or not.
Tell them that they will also play the week after regardless, and they wont be under as much pressure.

 

[Aristodemus]

Yeah I was thinking more about their long term development than the game itself.

 

[Big Ewis]

While I agree England's gameplan is simple, I think the apparent safety is experimentation is more due to culture and coherency.

France spend bugger-all time together and appear to have no attachment to the national side or each other. They're playing under a coach who also seems to have no idea what sort of team he wants to play. As a result French experimentation looks to be more wild.

England in the last year or so have capped players like Yarde, Launchbury, and the Vunipola brothers all at the age of 21. The side they were brought into had/has nothing like the experience of France, but because there's a greater attachment to each other and the shirt the team is less disrupted. They're not playing alone.

If the relative inertia is lost in the backs then there'll be even more young players -potentially a 19 year-old and two 20 year-olds- brought in this coming Six Nations. They'll be around the 20-25th new caps under Lancaster in two years.

yeah but that's not totally correct. Les Bleus have shown a lot of heart this year. It was more a problem of playing hard but not smart. The intensity has been there and they really tried hard every time, it's just the attack that's been a total mess and we had little to fall back onto for security if all else failed. Each player sort of played his own Top 14 Rugby but in a Bleus jersey.
With England it seems the other way around. The gameplan is simple and effective these days, but then they won't pull out the attacking of the century in any given match. It's steady and consistent.

I'd give France some time, which they have now with their 2 weeks of training for the first time like everybody else and we'll see if that changes anything.
So it's really not the football syndrome we have here where our players couldn't care less or even spit on the French flag or anything like that, it's really all up to having time together, trying to keep it a fixed roster that doesn't change every single test match, and ultimately gameplan.

I've always wondered why we didn't just imitate in part the English game plan in times of crisis. Of course we've got different players, so different aptitudes and the game plan should follow that, but we really ought to have a 'standard mode', plan B, or something easy to fall back onto. In stead, we're just out there, each guy reacting the best he can to what's happening and just....*playing Rugby* when they get the ball but it's not structured and coordinated like a team should be.
Anyways...

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

@ Big Ewis; Remember I was talking about experimentation in selection - I don't think Englands playing style can be classified as 'experimental' and wouldn't argue such And perhaps experimental isn't the right word but I mean picking new players as long as they are in form and have the proficiencies - in other words not making them jump through endless hoops to merit selection.

@Patchey and living sacrifice - you make it sound like you actively expect Watson and Nowell to start? I must confess I haven't watched Exeter or Bath much this season and so have to take other peoples word for how much credit they have done themselves. From what I've seen I'd be happy for them to start, but it would seem to me liek an unprecdentedly sudden rise to make a starting team!

@Aristodemus - The england set-up is healthy at the moment, we are a team going forwards and I believe that as long as new guys are fully integrated into the squad, they will do just fine whatever the occasion. And there's no reason to shy away from big occasions becausethat won't help these guys long term. I think our fear of trialling yougn players is born from the 'Mathew Tait' years when we threw inexperienced guys into a directionless and faltering England regime and expected them to make all the difference! N'uh! Making players jump through endless hoops to merit selection doesn't help anyone either. Players come in and just because they can tick the boxes at that time doesn't mean they always will - e.g Chris Ashton formerly ticked the boxes but no longer does. So why make new players go through endless provings; if they are playing well enough now, thats all that matters (as well as squad stability as I said)