[2013 EOYT] England

[Bada-Bing!]

Andy Farrell is 38; that means he had Owen Farrell when he was 16.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...rrells-family-keeps-Special-One-grounded.html

 

[Peat]

Hot sure about his defence, but as far as pace goes, he's one of the quicker guys out there. Drew Mitchell is no slouch & Ashton completely skinned him at Twickenham a few years back. And coming from a league background I'd be surprised if he wasn't dependable in the air. He's certainly not the finished article, but in open space, he's on of the best out there. Re Wade, he's small and not great in defence, but Lancaster has to take risks. Sticking Brown on the wing was a bad decision. He's not that quick and not powerful and really limits Englands attacking potential. You pick a wing based on his attacking prowess & try scoring ability first & foremost. You don't pick a wing because he can catch and kick. I reckon start with Yarde & Ashton, give Wade 20mins at the end.

He beat Mitchell because he was easy to beat when he was coming across at speed and then because he was able to keep running at full acceleration while Mitchell had to check, turn and accelerate again. Fair play, it was a good piece of finishing, but I don't think he's outstandingly fast. He's not like a Habana or Varndell. He is not going to reliably beat other wingers for pace.

As for Brown on the wing - disturbingly, he's probably been our best back when it comes to attack for the last year.

edit: While I'm not exactly rooting for Ben Youngs I can't help but grimace everytime Lee Dickson takes the field for England. I feel there is now a huge onus on the pack to provide an armchair ride here.

 

[ratsapprentice]

According to this Lawes and Launchbury were going to start with Parling on the bench anyway.

 

[Peat]

Am I the only one not particularly getting the big Courtney Lawes love-in at the moment?

 

[j'nuh]

Am I the only one not particularly getting the big Courtney Lawes love-in at the moment?

I get it, I'm just not convinced yet.

When on form, Lawes is pretty unstoppable. When he has a good game and everyone thinks he's coming into form, it brings back those warm memories of beating Australia. But I think it's too early to tell if he's coming into form, or whether he's just had a good game or two.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Am I the only one not particularly getting the big Courtney Lawes love-in at the moment?

Not at all.

He's certainly improved from last season and the one before it - but he's not done anything that different to what he was doing when no-one was clamoring for him to start.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

i think lawes and launchbury is not a bad call

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Am I the only one not particularly getting the big Courtney Lawes love-in at the moment?

Me!
He hits hard, but I can't see anything that sets him above any other lock in any other aspect of his game.
Sky Sports (/Barnes) bloody love him because he's a great highlights reel player: "Lets take a look back at all these massive hits from Lawes".

He's playing well, but not starting-ahead-of-Attwood/Parling (I know he's injured but the above saying he would've)-well.

I just hope he can finally translate his club form to international, as his last caps have all been desperately average.

 

[McTallshort]

Am I the only one not particularly getting the big Courtney Lawes love-in at the moment?

It is a bit OTT but if he can show the form he did 3 years ago then I will happily join in the big bad Courtney love-in.

 

[j'nuh]

A big hit beyond the gain line from Lawes is almost effectively a turn over. Even if you don't regain possession immediately from the tackle, the lost momentum nearly always forces the other team to scramble back and kick away. People glorify a scavenger in a ruck, or someone who specialises in the choke tackle, so why not a big hitter? I think Lawes does most of the second row work pretty damn well too. The Lawes we saw under MJ was the best lock we've had in years. If he can get back to that ability, then he's straight in the squad for me.

The problem I've had with him recently for England was all those missed tackles. Cut them out, and I'm quite happy to have someone in the squad who can flatten the opposition and disrupt momentum like he can.

FWIW, I think Attwood has been bigged up pretty fast as well.

 

[Tony Manx]

My two penny worth is that this team picked itself when you consider the selectors and the injury situation......there are no surprises other than the mild one of dropping the Oik and rewarding, for the great start to the season and tour of Argentina, Dickenson!!

I now think that this could be a close match as the scrum has lost a vast amount with the loss of Corbs and Aussies have by far the more creative backs PLUS England, unlike the ABs before they start their international season, have not played together since the 6N loss against Wales and the Aussies have been together for months.

I do not subscribe to the view that the SH nations are "tired" when they play the Autumn Internationals, as many have claimed for the England AB victory last year, as they have had plenty of time to recover...............

Narrow win for Australia but hope I am wrong! But then all will be right if Brown and Cooper manage to have a face off......now that would be handbags!!

 

[Peat]

Don't get me wrong, obviously I can see the attraction behind Lawes. At his best he is a very good lineout jumper and his offensive tackling is about as good as we're going to get. But how often have we seen his best at international level? Its all well and good harking back to his glory period under Johnson - not that I agree he was our best recent lock then, but he did have an awful lot of stuff well - but that was a long time ago in rugby terms. In between he's pretty average in an England shirt. Even then, he had a lot of flaws, and I think he may still do. Its not like his inclusion really solves our problems in the second row. Like, yeah, I agree there's been a lot of rush to go "Woo! Dave's the man" but at least he can point to being a bandaid on obvious flaws.

I think the fact I'm most uncomfortable with when it comes to Lawes is that he is a player who does his best work when the other team has the ball. If we are to actually start attacking sides, like Lancaster says, then I am very unsure whether Lawes is the right player.

 

[Tony Manx]

Don't get me wrong, obviously I can see the attraction behind Lawes. At his best he is a very good lineout jumper and his offensive tackling is about as good as we're going to get. But how often have we seen his best at international level? Its all well and good harking back to his glory period under Johnson - not that I agree he was our best recent lock then, but he did have an awful lot of stuff well - but that was a long time ago in rugby terms. In between he's pretty average in an England shirt. Even then, he had a lot of flaws, and I think he may still do. Its not like his inclusion really solves our problems in the second row. Like, yeah, I agree there's been a lot of rush to go "Woo! Dave's the man" but at least he can point to being a bandaid on obvious flaws.

I think the fact I'm most uncomfortable with when it comes to Lawes is that he is a player who does his best work when the other team has the ball. If we are to actually start attacking sides, like Lancaster says, then I am very unsure whether Lawes is the right player.

I think I am more prepared than most posters here to see what he does as he has been selected now, and he has played well this season.

While not sure I would have picked him ahead of a fit Parling, it has to be said that he has had considerable time out over the last few seasons with injury, mostly elbow I believe, and no player plays well with constant absences due to injury..............

Saturday will tell us one way or another...................!!

 

[McTallshort]

A big hit beyond the gain line from Lawes is almost effectively a turn over. Even if you don't regain possession immediately from the tackle, the lost momentum nearly always forces the other team to scramble back and kick away. People glorify a scavenger in a ruck, or someone who specialises in the choke tackle, so why not a big hitter? I think Lawes does most of the second row work pretty damn well too. The Lawes we saw under MJ was the best lock we've had in years. If he can get back to that ability, then he's straight in the squad for me.

The problem I've had with him recently for England was all those missed tackles. Cut them out, and I'm quite happy to have someone in the squad who can flatten the opposition and disrupt momentum like he can.

FWIW, I think Attwood has been bigged up pretty fast as well.

Very true along with the likes Wade (poor form) and Yarde (unproven).

 

[ratsapprentice]

How is Wade in poor form?... In case you hadn't noticed he's been the premier winger in the country for the past two seasons.

How can you level that criticism at an uncapped player? How else is Yarde supposed to prove himself?
That also brings me back to Wade - if he was "in form" would you just complain that he too is "unproven"?

As someone who has been bigging up Attwood, I don't understand how he's been bigged up fast?
He's been in good form for a year or so now, and is probably the only TH lock we have that is potentially of international quality.


I really hope we don't have any more commentators pronouncing Yarde as "Yardie" too.
Makes me cringe a bit when I hear that.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

How is Wade in poor form?... In case you hadn't noticed he's been the premier winger in the country for the past two seasons.

How can you level that criticism at an uncapped player? How else is Yarde supposed to prove himself?
That also brings me back to Wade - if he was "in form" would you just complain that he too is "unproven"?

As someone who has been bigging up Attwood, I don't understand how he's been bigged up fast?
He's been in good form for a year or so now, and is probably the only TH lock we have that is potentially of international quality.


I really hope we don't have any more commentators pronouncing Yarde as "Yardie" too.
Makes me cringe a bit when I hear that.

I agree with the honourable ratsappentice; people are only criticising Wade's form because he has thus far scored fewer tries. The reason for that? Well, teams had to eventually treat him as a danger man and not give him space. Take our game against Viadana in Italy; the moment Wade looked like receiving the ball, about 3 defenders went for him specifically to close off his options. This is partly why Wade didn't score a try that day; however it created space and opportunities for others, with 13 or so tries being scored in total - nothing to complain about!

I can speak for Wasps players but more have to take other peoples word on the form of others, such as Attwood and Vunipola. I haven't watched the latter this season but I trust he has improved his game dramatically in order to be thought of as first choice 8. Most of all, I pray he's stopped getting turned over as much as he used to...

 

[McTallshort]

How is Wade in poor form?... In case you hadn't noticed he's been the premier winger in the country for the past two seasons.

How can you level that criticism at an uncapped player? How else is Yarde supposed to prove himself?
That also brings me back to Wade - if he was "in form" would you just complain that he too is "unproven"?

As someone who has been bigging up Attwood, I don't understand how he's been bigged up fast?
He's been in good form for a year or so now, and is probably the only TH lock we have that is potentially of international quality.


I really hope we don't have any more commentators pronouncing Yarde as "Yardie" too.
Makes me cringe a bit when I hear that.

Its not a criticism of him rats, its a criticism of how people get completely carried away with the hype around certain players in particular uncapped ones. I hope Yarde becomes a great player but the constant media and forum hype is not going to help him and I stand by what I say about Wade his form has dipped and again is unproven yet at top international level.

 

[psychic duck]

In his defence, when England have attacked well (NZ, Scotland) he's scored. He's been atrocious in a poor side; I wouldn't write him completely off until he's crap in a good England side.

Odd logic. So if the entire side is underperforming does that make them all undroppable as they haven't looked bad with the side playing well?

I'm disappointed that Wade doesn't look like getting a proper chance in the England side any time soon. I feel he may be overlooked as long as Lancaster is there, he's just not his type of winger.

 

[Peat]

If this is Christian Wade in poor form, he is actually a phenomenon and not playing him at every possible moment is retarded.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Wade will start vs Argentina, I reckon.