[2013 EOYT] England

[ratsapprentice]

In his defence, when England have attacked well (NZ, Scotland) he's scored. He's been atrocious in a poor side; I wouldn't write him completely off until he's crap in a good England side.

That doesn't explain his schoolboy defence.

 

[psychic duck]

Great to see Attwood there - Parling must be injured, no way Lawes should be there over him otherwise.
I wouldn't be surprised to see Lancaster put Brown on the wing with Wade on the bench, to be honest.

Generally quite like the side, though. No glaring errors, for me - just minor grievances (i.e. would've liked to see Burns, and maybe Trinder, in there). I've got no major issue with Tomkins at 13 - really didn't like him last year, but he looks a lot better now.

Internationals have really snuck up on me, I didn't think they started for a few weeks, so vveerryy excited for this weekend now

I guess it's just a continuation of Lancaster/Farrell's obsession of clogging up a potentially exciting backline with mediocre Northerners from Saracens. With Wigglesworth and Strettle gone, they were compelled to find another to fill the minimum quota of Sarries backs.

 

[Patchey]

I'm honestly not sure if having Wade in place of him would be a step down in terms of defence.

 

[Crapspray]

That doesn't explain his schoolboy defence.

His defence was still crap back in 10-11, he assuaged it by scoring tries.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I guess it's just a continuation of Lancaster/Farrell's obsession of clogging up a potentially exciting backline with mediocre Northerners from Saracens. With Wigglesworth and Strettle gone, they were compelled to find another to fill the minimum quota of Sarries backs.

To be fair, who else can we choose from?
Eastmond and Burrell aren't 13s, Joseph has been pretty poor at Bath and Trinder is barely back from injury and a has big questions over his defence.

 

[ratsapprentice]

His defence was still crap back in 10-11, he assuaged it by scoring tries.

That's my point though - he's been written off because of his really ****ty defence.
I don't think many people expected him to score tries the way the team was playing. (Although he wasn't scoring many for Saracens either)

 

[Aristodemus]

Exciting lock pair if it is indeed Lauchbury Attwood, I hope Vunipola is given a shot at 8 also.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Attwood behind Dan Cole in the scrum; I like the sound of it.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I'm honestly not sure if having Wade in place of him would be a step down in terms of defence.

Exactly this; I don't buy that Wade's defense is much worse than Ashtons at all, and that's the supposed reason for Wade not being picked. Decision making better than Wade's? Maybe. But let's be honest it was a pretty terrible decision to drag Alesana Tuilagi into touch by his hair that time...

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

i would pick wade over ashton any day

 

[Zed]

I'm guessing the coaches have poured over videos of Ashton's club & country games and have a good understanding of what is form is like. Personally I'd pick him. England can play some pretty horrid, 10 men rugby at times and that's hard on the wings, they don't get the ball, they don't score tries and they get desperate to get their hands on the ball, then everything tends to go pearshaped. There were games when Ashton would be given these dire slow cut out passes, he gets the ball, barely any room to move, defenders everywhere and he's expected to perform miracles. If England are going forward, there's space out wide & they have a 10 & 12 that are capable of throwing fast accurate cut out passes to the 15 & wings (i.e not Tindall) then Ashton will thrive. But you can't just give him the ball and hope for the best.

 

[Patchey]

I don't think even the most fanatical Ashton haters among us would deny that part of his issue has been the same issue faced by all of England's outside backs over the last few seasons, namely that we have struggled to bring them into the game. When he was in his pomp he was involved in the overhwhelming majority of England's attacking plays, either out wide or coming in off his wing to run off the ten or Foden (and this is crucial because Ashton has always looked at his best when running off Foden at full back).

However I'd argue that in Wade is much better in attack than Ashton regardless, and as Henry pointed out, their defensive issues are at least equal. Wade also has a better step and more pace than Ashton and doesn't need to come in off his wing to look threatening. He is more than capable of skinning the opposite winger as well as running through gaps in midfield, something I have rarely seen Ashton do.

Basically, Wade > Ashton on both potential and skill. Form and experience seem to be the only thing keeping Wade out.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

According to the RFU website the team will be announced at 11am tomorrow morning.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Ashton has just shown that he is a limited player.
His primary skill was (and hopefully still is) picking wonderful lines as a support runner - he did this to great effect for about 2 years.

The way that England (and Saracens) have played both in terms of style and quality have shown that he really doesn't have anything other than that.

Can he:

...beat people with his feet? No.
...beat people with his pace? Not really.
...beat people with his power? Not really.
...Is he dependable defensively? No.
...Is he dependable in the air? No.
...Can he kick well? No.

The only thing he can do that can effect games is run good support lines - if you don't have a team that is aware and skilful enough to accommodate that then he is a completely useless player.
If you do have the requisites then he can be extremely effective. But that's been a big if for over a year now.

I certainly wouldn't pick Wade in the first match simply because you are then left with 4 players with less than ten caps between them.
Though If he doesn't get at least an hour over the next two games I will be furious.

 

[Peat]

What rats said.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

yep, exactly.

Though I'd add that Ashtons possibly saving grace is that he can actually finish tries more often than not when given a sniff of the line - compare that to someone like Strettle, who often comes up short - literally! - in that department, as well as just being a terribly average player, and that perhaps explains the perseverence with Ashton but not with Strettle.

 

[McTallshort]

Regards the Hooker I know its not fashionable to say it but I honestly think when Dylan has his A game head on he is better in almost every area than Youngs. If he can show the form he did in Cardiff in 2011 he would have to be first choice.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Regards the Hooker I know its not fashionable to say it but I honestly think when Dylan has his A game head on he is better in almost every area than Youngs. If he can show the form he did in Cardiff in 2011 he would have to be first choice.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...ing-concussion-in-training.html#disqus_thread

Agreed, but I don't think Hartley's likely to start as he's managing an ankle injury.

Lawes looks like he'll get the nod at 5, with Launchbury at 4. Billy V at 8 ahead of Morgan and the above Telegraph article suggests Dickson ahead of Youngs; which will be music to some posters' ears on here.

 

[Wasps For Life]

I think Wade is Already a Better Player than Ashton and should start. But I can see why Lancaster doesn't want so little experience in his Backline. I think we'll really miss Manu in the Midfield.

 

[Zed]

Ashton has just shown that he is a limited player.
His primary skill was (and hopefully still is) picking wonderful lines as a support runner - he did this to great effect for about 2 years.

The way that England (and Saracens) have played both in terms of style and quality have shown that he really doesn't have anything other than that.

Can he:

...beat people with his feet? No.
...beat people with his pace? Not really.
...beat people with his power? Not really.
...Is he dependable defensively? No.
...Is he dependable in the air? No.
...Can he kick well? No.

Hot sure about his defence, but as far as pace goes, he's one of the quicker guys out there. Drew Mitchell is no slouch & Ashton completely skinned him at Twickenham a few years back. And coming from a league background I'd be surprised if he wasn't dependable in the air. He's certainly not the finished article, but in open space, he's on of the best out there. Re Wade, he's small and not great in defence, but Lancaster has to take risks. Sticking Brown on the wing was a bad decision. He's not that quick and not powerful and really limits Englands attacking potential. You pick a wing based on his attacking prowess & try scoring ability first & foremost. You don't pick a wing because he can catch and kick. I reckon start with Yarde & Ashton, give Wade 20mins at the end.