[2013 EOYT] England

[Wasps For Life]

Wade will start vs Argentina, I reckon.

That seems To make sense. and then if either have a shocker the other one will start against NZ?

 

[j'nuh]

How is Wade in poor form?... In case you hadn't noticed he's been the premier winger in the country for the past two seasons.

How can you level that criticism at an uncapped player? How else is Yarde supposed to prove himself?
That also brings me back to Wade - if he was "in form" would you just complain that he too is "unproven"?

As someone who has been bigging up Attwood, I don't understand how he's been bigged up fast?
He's been in good form for a year or so now, and is probably the only TH lock we have that is potentially of international quality.


I really hope we don't have any more commentators pronouncing Yarde as "Yardie" too.
Makes me cringe a bit when I hear that.

He didn't even make the Saxons in the new year. I don't think anyone connected his name with England back then.

Fast forward to March and that loss to Wales, and suddenly everyone is keen on having a "more physical" second row.

I don't know, it all seems a little too knee-jerk to me. Attwood has come a long way, there's no doubt about that. He's improved immeasurably and is one of the best players at Bath. But for me he's improved into the Launchbury-Parling bracket, not past it. I don't think there's much evidence that he'd particularly improve the team, in short or long term. Personally, in regards to physicality, I'm disappointed no one really talks about Garvey as a back row option...

Should Attwood start this weekend? Possibly, but he underperformed against Glos after coming back from injury and Lawes had a pretty decent game, so...

 

[ratsapprentice]

He didn't even make the Saxons in the new year. I don't think anyone connected his name with England back then.

From 2010: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...he-bull-by-the-horns-in-England-campaign.html

People that haven't connected him with England recently are fickle and probably haven't watched many Bath games.

Attwood is THE key to Bath's dominance in the scrum and maul - he was a major part of the dominance Bath had over Glos.
I don't see how you can say he underperformed - he absolutely dominated.
But then again he isn't built like a twig so he he doesn't stand out in the loose as much as his England competitors do.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yeah, I remember when Attwood was first touted for England - unfortunately got himself banned before he made his breakthrough, and is just getting back into it now, after getting overtaken by others.

 

[j'nuh]

Oh I know people used to call for him. He was good under Gloucester, then fell to crap, and started to regain form and England recognition in the last year.

Attwood is THE key to Bath's dominance in the scrum and maul - he was a major part of the dominance Bath had over Glos.

That's not true. Attwood is a tighthead lock and scrummaged behind Perenise. We were pretty happy at loosehead and held our own there. Our problems nearly exclusively came at tighthead, where Paul James kept illegally pushing Harden up from the side. (Not making any excuses there - a better prop than Harden would have managed better.) But my point is that Attwood wasn't particularly involved in the scrum dominance - he was just part of a larger picture.

And even IF Attwood made the difference... gloating about pushing around the Glos pack that featured against Bath is like gloating about winning an arm wrestle with a 5 year old. Murphy is okay (not as good as Wood), but Dawidiuk and Harden aren't Premiership standard. We also lost Murphy 28 minutes into the game, which meant an early appearance for Yann Thomas. Our other prop on the bench was an academy player.

And I've seen teams beat us more in the maul in the past. There's nothing impressive about what Bath did there.

I'm sure Attwood is marginally better than Launchbury and Parling in scrum and maul. But he's much weaker than Parling in the lineout, and much weaker than Launchbury in the loose.

 

[Maverick1987]

Didn't Atwood have the best stats in the premiership last year on lineout takes and steals ? Also I'm sure he leads baths lineout doesn't he ? I was under the impression that his lineout is 1 of the things that has seen him touted for England he physicality is just a big big bonus

 

[ratsapprentice]

That's simply not true J'nuh - Perenise is a weak scrummager and struggles without Dave behind him.

Bath's maul is average when he is not playing. And has been very strong against every team this season.
I'm not basing this just off one game against Glos - it's the sum of last season and this one.

I also don't buy that Parling is much better than him in the lineout - he is marginally better.
Parling's been treated as some sort of lineout-whisperer when he's just very good.

 

[LooseHeadProp87]

Eng v Arg how many changes to the starting line up do you expect ?? i am a big fan of tom youngs but he didnt have best of games would also like to see marler and wilson start and also freddy burns and luther burrel

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I expect to see Wade, Burrell, Hartley and Parling start.
Possibilities of one or more of Wilson, Attwood, Morgan and Foden.

I'd like to see Flood (or Burns) at 10, but I think Lancaster will stick with Farrell, possibly bringing Burns onto the bench.

 

[ratsapprentice]

What I'd like to see:

1. Alex Corbisiero
2. Dylan Hartley
3. Davey Wilson
4. Joe Launchbury
5. Geoff Parling
6. Tom Wood
7. Chris Robshaw
8. Billy Vunipola
9. Danny Care
10. Owen Farrell
11. Marland Yarde
12. Billy Twelvetrees
13. Joel Tomkins
14. Christian Wade
15. Mike Brown

16. Tom Youngs
17. Mako Vunipola
18. Dan Cole
19. Dave Attwood
20. Matt Kvesic
21. Lee Dickson
22. Toby Flood
23. Kyle Eastmond

Changes in bold.

Dropping 36 would be extremely fickle.

Farrell usually plays pretty well just after he's played badly enough for people to want to drop him.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Oooooh, I forgot about Corbs potentially being back - exciting!
I'm not dropping 36 in my side, but I always expected him to start one and Burrell the other, with 36 vs all blacks unless Burrell really impressed.

 

[Jaguares]

What do u think about Dickson's performance against Aussies?

 

[Peat]

I very much hope we make no changes we don't expect to start against the All Blacks. That game showed a lack of cohesion as a team, if we want to win we can't chop and change here.

 

[LooseHeadProp87]

i think lancaster is wants corbs , youngs , cole for front row but vunipola impressed me at 1. i dont want wholesale changes just a few tweaks here and there.

 

[Chikwa]

I very much hope we make no changes we don't expect to start against the All Blacks. That game showed a lack of cohesion as a team, if we want to win we can't chop and change here.

One positive aspect of your game that Lancaster had been working is the teams mental side.unlike the Aussies you kept on believing.My feeling is that whatever team you bring will not be able to handle the AB's who are no longer one dimensional in their approach and ability to win games.Lancaster and his team will want to discover at what level the team really is.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I think it's a real shame Yarde hasn't been properly utilised by England so far. He's pretty strong for a winger and has pace that England have been lacking for ages. We are still too stuck in forwards rugby.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

What I'd like to see:

1. Alex Corbisiero
2. Dylan Hartley
3. Davey Wilson
4. Joe Launchbury
5. Geoff Parling
6. Tom Wood
7. Chris Robshaw
8. Billy Vunipola
9. Danny Care
10. Owen Farrell
11. Marland Yarde
12. Billy Twelvetrees
13. Joel Tomkins
14. Christian Wade
15. Mike Brown

16. Tom Youngs
17. Mako Vunipola
18. Dan Cole
19. Dave Attwood
20. Matt Kvesic
21. Lee Dickson
22. Toby Flood
23. Kyle Eastmond

Changes in bold.

Dropping 36 would be extremely fickle.

Farrell usually plays pretty well just after he's played badly enough for people to want to drop him.

Haha Ratsapprentice; I see even you are now advocating Hartley starting ahead of Tom Youngs.

Pretty much agree with your starting 23 v Argentina, apart from Danny Care. I thought Ben Youngs did enough when he came on to start and Care to the bench. Dickson did not do enough with his distribution and I think Farrell works better with Youngs. Also agree 36 should stay; if he does not perform in the next two then Luther Burrell deserves a chance come the 6N. Barritt should be back by then, but gives England nothing going forward.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Anthony Watson has been called in to camp to train with the squad.
Not as injury cover, just to get a taste of it.

Very pleased with that - Watson is a supreme talent. Shows Lancaster's got an eye on the future, and knows a talent when he sees one (I'd questioned that, after continually picking Goode )

 

[ratsapprentice]

Yeah was about to post that: Very, very positive move.

Completely unexpected, credit should be given to Lancaster as this is the sort of thing that England have been criticised for not doing in the past.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I swear Stuart Barnes on Sky sports is losing it; I've just finished re watching the match and for one of the line outs in the 1st half where Tom Youngs overthrows and misses Tom Wood with a throw Barnes says Billy Vunipola misses it. Since when is Billy V a lineout option for England? It's clearly Tom Wood who misses Young's throw, as the replay showed England number 6 being lifted in the air.

Then for the Will Genia charge down which led to Robshaw's try Barnes says the ball strikes McCalman. If anything the ball strikes Timani's (Wallaby no. 4) backside and the arms of Mako V and another England player.