Your Lions Squad Based on this Season?

[General Melchett]

Richie Gray, Adam Beard (and most likely Beirne) will be nowhere near the squad IMO.

Is Peter O'Mahony at 6 a write off or is there a chance he can roll back the years and rediscover his 2017 form?

I'm liking a front three of Sutherland, George & Furlong.

 

[dullonien]

Not sure where Adam Beard's name has come from. He had a dream start to his international career, going on a long unbeaten run, but he's nowhere near Lions quality. He's a big lad, but doesn't show it enough. He's a poor ball carrier, often going into contact far too upright. Despite his height, he's also not a great line out jumper imo. Itoje and Kruis are far better in that department. His best asset is probably his maul defense, but that's not enough.

As for the backrow debate, there's a lot of options at 7. Given the opposition I think Curry could be the favourite though. As others have said there'a a lot of 6.5 options available on the blindside, but not many lumps like SA have. One option could be Faletau at 6 with Binny at 8, but that would be reliant on both rediscovering top form after struggling with multiple injuries. Faletau is a good lineout operator, but also ticks the workrate/tackling/mobility/and creativity boxes that you want in a blindside. I know he's not a 6'5 monster, but at 6'2 and 113kg (according to Wikipedia, looked a bit bigger than usual during thr 6 nations thoigh) he can hold his own. We also all know that at his best he's a world class player as well. Easily got another Lions tour in him I'd say.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Curry should be at 7 because part of the 7s job is keeping an eye on the scrumhalf and who better to try and figure out wtf Faf is gonna do than the guy who's been training with him day in day out for the last 3 years

 

[Umaga's Witness]

Richie Gray, Adam Beard (and most likely Beirne) will be nowhere near the squad IMO.

Is Peter O'Mahony at 6 a write off or is there a chance he can roll back the years and rediscover his 2017 form?

I'm liking a front three of Sutherland, George & Furlong.

The Richie Gray, Beirne (playing number 8) talk was just me demonstrating an example of how wrong you could go if trying to beat the boks at their own game.

@dullonien Adam beard was always meant as a question to those looking to add size to the pack, as I'm relatively unfamiliar with him. He has played well when I've seen him and has played blindside according to Wikipedia so was interested in others opinions.

personally, I think you should focus on who best fits the style you want to play, and don't make that the same style the boks want to play. You might need a touch of compromise but make sure you don't take it too far
I'd be going with something like
Sutherland
George
Furlong
Ryan
Itoje
Curry
Underhill
Faletau (if he finds form) (otherwise) Wilson

reserves
Healy or marler
?
Sinckler
Ball (if he's better in the scrum) (otherwise) kruis
B vunipola

replacement options would include vunipola coming on with faletau moving to 6, ball or kruis coming on with itoje moving to 6. And Curry can move from 6 to 7.

those above who don't make the 23 should still go on the plane.

and if that lineup doesn't work in the first test due to being too small don't give up, just change who starts vs who finishes
For example,

Starting 8 could be
Sutherland
George
Furlong
Ball
Ryan
Itoje
Curry
B vunipola

finishing 8 could be
Healy
?
Sinckler
Ryan
Itoje
Curry
Underhill
Faletau

take that further, to the 15

Test 1

starting xv
Sutherland
George
Furlong
Ryan
Itoje
Curry
Underhill
Faletau
Murray
Russell
Adams
Tuilagi
Ring rose
May
Williams

finishing 15
Healy
?
Sinckler
Ball
Ryan/itoje
Itoje/faletau/Curry
Underhill/Curry
Vunipola
Davies
Farrell/Russell
Adams/may
Tuilagi/farrell
Ringrose/tuilagi
May/Williams
Hogg

who come on for whom depends on how game is going.
and if the game plan didn't work, don't give up just change starting and finishing lineups for the next test

starting Xv
Sutherland
George
Furlong
Ryan
Ball
Itoje
Curry
Vunipola
Davies
Farrell
May
Tuilagi
Ringrose
Williams
Hogg

finishing xv
Healy
?
Sinckler
Ryan
Itoje
Curry
Underhill
Faletau
Murray
Russell
Adams
Tuilagi
Ringrose
May
Williams

 

[General Melchett]

When I think of Jake Ball, Tom Kruis, Joe Launchbury, Adam Beard, or Charlie Ewels (in that order.)

At 5ft 7 I think Tom might struggle in the lineout.

When I think of Tom I think of "Crashed and burned huh Mav.......Slider (short nasal inhale)....you stink"

 

[FrankfurtRugbyWatcher4]

Touche.
At least I learned a lesson and won't make the same mistake twice.
Ryan and Lawes or Isekwe starting (whoever has matured to the right degree by then.) Backed up by, in the pecking order, Ball, George Cruise, Launchbury, Beard, Ewels.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Why are you advocating for Lawes to start at lock??
Like seriously, I don't get it

 

[big ginger 8]

Touche.
At least I learned a lesson and won't make the same mistake twice.
Ryan and Lawes or Isekwe starting (whoever has matured to the right degree by then.) Backed up by, in the pecking order, Ball, George Cruise, Launchbury, Beard, Ewels.

Since you've said it a few times why do you think Ryan is underweight/underpowered/not mature enough?

 

[FrankfurtRugbyWatcher4]

@big ginger 8:
Ryan is the guy I build the remaining selection for second row around. He is the undisputable first choice in my view. Itoje is needed as the only available big #6 in the back row. And I've got doubts about his ability in the engine room. Scrum. He looked awful at the World Cup final there.
@TRF Olyy:
Lawes is the best player in that list of mine. And I was not the only one here, who did not like him in the back row. I wrote at length about it above.
Scrum ability? Only Launchbury is bigger. That's all.
And some bulk would mix well with Ryan. But I admid, there is not too much depth or choice.
Why reservations about Launchbury? He is quite industrious as well, but he is missing ... call it grit, abrasiveness, enforcer abilities of a Wade Dooley, Paulie O'Connell, or lesser characters like Grewcock. He is missing that completely.
So I hope that Lawes is preserving his form.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Scrum ability? Only Launchbury is bigger.

Size isn't everything (badum tss), Lawes has always been an average at best scrummager.

Thinking about it I wouldn't be overly upset at a Ryan/Krutoje 4/5/6 (though I don't like putting locks in the backrow)

 

[Umaga's Witness]

My feeling is that jake ball is the best scrummaging lock available, but this is coming from my comparably lesser expertise when it comes to the finer details of northern hemisphere players.

am I right or not? If scrummaging was the only criteria from which to Choose a lock, who would you choose?

 

[Umaga's Witness]

Size isn't everything (badum tss),

To be fair, he doesn't disagree (see below)

...call it grit, abrasiveness, enforcer abilities ......[more important than].....lesser characters like Grewcock.

 

[General Melchett]

My feeling is that jake ball is the best scrummaging lock available, but this is coming from my comparably lesser expertise when it comes to the finer details of northern hemisphere players.

am I right or not? If scrummaging was the only criteria from which to Choose a lock, who would you choose?

It's interesting. Most locks being mentioned seem to do the majority of things well but not many tick all the boxes. Jonny Gray is an all round solid lock. A decent scrummager but his main strength is his defence. His tackle stats are usually insane but he's not the best ball carrier. Hopefully moving to Exeter and working with Rob Baxter will help fix that part of his game.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I'd say Itoje is the most all-round lock. He's a bit lighter than some of the really big brutes but doesn't have glaring weaknesses. His carrying could use a little improvement but when he stays disciplined he doesn't do a whole lot wrong. Whilst other locks may be better in some areas, I think Itoje is very good or excellent in all areas.

I don't even think the England team that faced the Boks was that bad or undersized. The main issue was that the intensity shown in the Australia and New Zealand games wasn't there. We don't need to try to beat the Boks in an arm wrestle, just ensure we are quick off the line and hitting them hard. Even a big carrier will struggle if hit before they can get any momentum. If we try to match the Boks for size that will bring our game towards an arm wrestle and we will lose. Just don't even bother. England tried to do this to Ireland a few years ago when Ireland were the bully boys. We got in a slow arm wrestle and lost. Other times we have played our own power game and had much more success.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

I'd say Itoje is the most all-round lock. He's a bit lighter than some of the really big brutes but doesn't have glaring weaknesses. His carrying could use a little improvement but when he stays disciplined he doesn't do a whole lot wrong. Whilst other locks may be better in some areas, I think Itoje is very good or excellent in all areas.

I don't even think the England team that faced the Boks was that bad or undersized. The main issue was that the intensity shown in the Australia and New Zealand games wasn't there. We don't need to try to beat the Boks in an arm wrestle, just ensure we are quick off the line and hitting them hard. Even a big carrier will struggle if hit before they can get any momentum. If we try to match the Boks for size that will bring our game towards an arm wrestle and we will lose. Just don't even bother. England tried to do this to Ireland a few years ago when Ireland were the bully boys. We got in a slow arm wrestle and lost. Other times we have played our own power game and had much more success.

And that, quick off the line, tackle around the legs, kind of defences is one reason why I think your first choice blindside should be a blindside, not a lock. A good example not to follow is the all blacks selection decision against England, which @Larksea pains to point out at every opportunity (and I'm yet to give him the credit he is due, hence why I'm doing it here, mumbling under my breath rather than looking him in the eyes and admitting he was right) - we chose Scott Barrett at 6 and left same cane out, as a result failed to stop England's momentum in its tracks.

Where size might be important, though, is in scrums, mauls, and at the breakdown if the springboks keep it tight.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

So, @The Oggmonster @dullonien
looking back at my post three posts back I realise in the teams I was suggesting I had written "beard" when I meant ball, because beard was on my mind, just having talked about him previously in the same post (deliberately on that occasion)
@TRF_Olyy any chance I can edit that post?

I got it right when I initially named my preferred front 8 and reserves, then somehow my brain substituted ball for beard in the subsequent examples of how this preferred lineup could be used as starting and finishing xvs

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

While I'd agree that Itoje is probably the most all-round player who is a lock, I'd argue that Kruis and Ryan are both more complete second rowers. As long as Kruis is still available I'd be going for a Ryan-Kruis starting pair with Itoje bringing some athleticism and energy from the bench.

I also wouldn't be against trying Itoje at 6. IIRC, he never actually got to play in England's back row alongside of a 7 - it was always Robshaw or Wood. Most criticisms of his time spent there were more to do with an imbalance in the back row, which Itoje caught most of the flack for, but I always thought that it was more down to the lack of an openside. In theory, there's no reason that Itoje couldn't do just as well, if not better, as a back rower than as a lock. At 6'5 and 115kg, I've always thought that size-wise he fits more into the lineout jumping back rower bracket than the out-and-out lock bracket. The area of blindside play that I'd say he isn't quite up to scratch on is ball carrying, but if you've got the likes of Sutherland, Furlong and Vunipola in the team then they should be able to pick up quite a lot of that slack.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

@TRF_Olyy any chance I can edit that post?

Should be good to go now,
Not sure why but sometimes it sets users permissions differently in different forums and stops people from editing their own posts - easy enough to manually change it though

While I'd agree that Itoje is probably the most all-round player who is a lock, I'd argue that Kruis and Ryan are both more complete second rowers. As long as Kruis is still available I'd be going for a Ryan-Kruis starting pair with Itoje bringing some athleticism and energy from the bench.

This was my thought process too.
Kruis is probably my favourite EQP lock and definitely the kind of player you want going up against the boks - it's also why I mentioned Itoje at 6 above. Usually I'm deadset against locks in the backrow but in this case I'm more open to making the exception. Just to fit Krutoje and Ryan into the same pack.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

So, @The Oggmonster @dullonien
looking back at my post three posts back I realise in the teams I was suggesting I had written "beard" when I meant ball, because beard was on my mind, just having talked about him previously in the same post (deliberately on that occasion)
@TRF_Olyy any chance I can edit that post?

I got it right when I initially named my preferred front 8 and reserves, then somehow my brain substituted ball for beard in the subsequent examples of how this preferred lineup could be used as starting and finishing xvs

It's understandable as ball has a beard and beard has 2 balls. Easily confused.

 

[FrankfurtRugbyWatcher4]

Chuckle @ragerancher. And thanks to all who spoke in favour of Itoje at 6.
Bring in a big # 6? That was the jolt of big ginger 8 which stirred up quite a fruitful discussion. With how to beef up the second row thrown in for good measure.
This question agitated me, because it points right into the heart of an ironic situation:
There are nine top notch back rowers: Vunipola, Wilson, Wainwright, Stander, Navidi, Underhill, Curry, Watson, Tipuric. Majo Itoje is making it ten, of which three or four won't make it on the plane. That is such a staggering compilation of talent. Only injury or deterioration of form of such a number of cases (three to four) will make that choice bearable. Which is likely to be the case though. (O'Mahoney and Faletau are probably too old by then. That is my realistic assumption.)
The problem is, that in order to have the right balance against South Africa two of Itoje, Vunipola, or Wilson would have to start. That is pretty thin.
What do I mean:
A back row of 6 Itoje 8 Wilson 7 Curry would be quite good.
A back row of 6 Wilson 8 Stander 7 Curry would not
have that feelgood factor in terms of its balance any more for the task at hand. Despite the merits of each player individually. Such an outcome would not at all resemble the "spoilt for choice" character which the above first look at things had. It is rather marked by scarcity.
No matter what you think of Itoje at lock, the need for bulk in the back row is a very strong reason the have him at 6. A job I would not entrust Lawes with.
So who can be brought in additionally as a big #6?
Excellent footballers Jonnie Gray and Iain Henderson have not got the right skill set.
Next in line to that group of 10 are Moriarty, Ritchie, van der Flier, maybe Leavy on the comeback trail. They are all worthy of a place in a Lions squad. But they don't fit the job description either. So a look further afar is needed, brainstorming:
Tadhg Beirne, Nathan Hughes, Sam Skinner, Aaron Shingler, Brad Shields, Tim Swinson, Ted Hill, Ryan Baird.
These fine players are simply not at the standard of the aforementioned 10 + 3 / 4.
Nevertheless, in order to make sure of the right mix by having a bit of breadth, it would be warranted to give Beirne a chance.
Hughes, Shields, and Swinson faded away from international rugby. And this is about an inclusion for which a master of his trade like Tipuric would have to be dropped.
Skinner is not that special and did not do much in that position so far either. Baird was suggested by big ginger 8, but I do not know him at all (6 ft 6, like Beirne or Shingler, is appealing though.) Ted Hill is measuring 6 ft 4 but he is too untried at that level. Shingler is next after Beirne I'd say. But he looks more like a light lock, not like the tall but mobile flanker he used to be before his long injury. And while Beirne has got potential to develop, that ascendency does not really mark the outlook for Shingler.
So there is no way around Itoje at flanker. I always regretted that he was not systematically built up in that position by England (not ideal.) And Beirne should be nominated in the light of what we know today, stand-by is not enough.