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Your Lions Squad Based on this Season?

I'd be interested in people's thoughts about the Lions deploying a 'big 6' for this tour? I think its been mentioned a few times but mostly offhandedly and I'm after reading an article that got me thinking about it again. Fair warning this might ramble, as I'm trying to figure out my own thoughts on the matter.

Obviously SA have had great success playing PSDT (6'6" 120kg) on the blindside and England have had more...mixed success with playing Lawes there. Of course there is the argument that there's no point trying to beat SA at their own game which definitely has its merits.. However, I do have some concerns about the quality of the blindesides available to us. That is at least partially because my ideal 6 is in the mould of a Ferris (6'4" 112kg) or Kaino (6'5" 110kg). That's not to say I don't think the available options are good players, most of the name thrown about are definitely test match quality, I just feel a lot of them are more openside/blindside hybrids. I'm also probably influenced that knowing what we know now my starting 7 and 8 would be Curry and Vunipola. Against SA good set piece is vital and I think the third backrower has to be good in the lineout. Underhill doesn't have that ability to my knowledge and I don't particularly like the balance with any of O'Mahony, Ritchie or Tipuric.

If we're defining the 'big 6' as someone with the size of a secondrow and the athleticism of a backrower then Itoje is the obvious frontrunner to my mind even if it's not the case in Eddie Jones'. He's obviously got the ability at the breakdown, in the lineout and in defence and I think he's an underrated carrier, especially as he would likely be freed up to carry a bit wider than usual.

Where it would get tricky would be if you were planning this as a definite tactic rather than just an option who could you play in place of Itoje (6'5" 115kg) if he was unavailable for the position. In terms of players that have played internationally at both secondrow and blindeside for any of the Lions nations, Lawes (6'6" 111kg), Henderson (6'6" 117kg) and Beirne (6'6" 113kg) are the ones that come to mind (maybe Kruis as well?). Certainly the prevailing opinion of English fans on this board seems to be that Lawes shouldn't be played at 6 but I do think he was growing into the position as the 6N progressed. Henderson due to necessity hasn't played there in yonks which is a bit of a pity. He's a infuriatingly inconsistent which is a pity as there's a lot of obvious talent there. Gatland did seem to get the best out of him on the last Lions tour. I question if he still has the pace he had when he first burst onto the scene. Part of me would love to see him tried there in a warm up game but given he's unlikely to play there for club or country before the Lions he's pretty much a no go. Beirne would have been a borderline at best tourist before his injury and since rightfully no one has included him. I certainly wouldn't want him to start at secondrow against SA, however I do think there is merit to considering him as a blindside but it would be hugely dependent on an upcoming season which is not a great think to be relying on at the moment. He does have a lot of attributes for a modern blindside. He's an excellent poacher, a very good lineout defender and very comfortable in the wider channels. I really do think blindside is his best position, unfortunately he picked the wrong province to play for if he wanted to wear 6. I have some hope that the signing of Snyman for Munster and the potential emergence of Ahern might see Beirne shifted to 6 and O'Mahony to 7.

I mentioned in the OP that Ryan Baird (6'6" 103kg, definitely heavier than that now, that was weight upon entering the academy) could be a bolter for this role, he has the athletic traits you like to see ( did not want that to embed, and it's meant to start at 4:48) but more than anyone really would have needed a full season to be in with a chance so he's a non-runner.

Stepping away from the uniform 'big 6' if you want a more physical, ball carrying option who's good in the lineout there's three number 8's at Leinster with experience at blindside in Conan, Doris and Deegan. The first two being more likely than the last to be in with any shout. I realise I've named four Leinstermen there but I'm not championing them (Conan and Doris are the only ones with any realistic chance) I'm just very familiar with them and they exemplify a lot of the qualities I'm talking about. I'm sure there's a number of players across the other nations who check a similar number of boxes in the style I want.

So it would appear from my analysis that Itoje is the only realistic option if we want to go this route for the Lions so it should only be an option and not our plan. I appreciate I've named a lot of players so it's totally fair to talk about them and why I'm wrong about what they can or cannot do but I would also appreciate your opinions about whether I'm right that we at least need a more physical six even if we don't go with this 'new' fad (secondrow-blindside hybrids are hardly new) or should we go with dual opensides or a more rangy option.

Disclaimer, like most of you it's been a minute since I've watched a full game so my picture of players is in full off-season mode and more hazy than usual.
 
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I don't like Itoje at 6 at all tbh, keep him in the donkey row (even when he played flank for England he packed down in the 2nd row at scrumtime more often than not).
Cunderhill vs SA is a weird one because they did very well in SA but then didn't do much in the RWC final. I'd say it was more of a pack effort than lack of meat on the flanks - both Vunipolas were poor 19/20, and we lost Sincklers carrying/clearing a couple of minutes into the game.

Obv I'm a bit biased but I think Cunderhill is the best flank partnership available - both are decent carriers (Curry a bit better), and Curry is a reasonable lineout option (he was used a decent amount during the RWC after everyone was nashing their teeth about us not having a lineout option in the backrow) and I think pairing them with a better 8 than last season's Binny will see them shine properly again.
I'll leave it to others to suggest who to put at 8 because I can barely remember the 6N and every team of the week/team of the tournament I just quickly googled had either Alldritt or Curry there, which doesn't help.
 
I've tried to let it lie for a while, but may I have mentioned the words Itoje and 6 in the same breath once or twice in the past.

You're seldom going to outmuscle the Boks but you can't allow yourself to be beaten up by them either. Chuck in v short preparation time and it does lead to the possibility of some horses for courses selections to fight fire with fire. That could mean the more physical Underhill over Curry at 7, it could mean Lawes or Itoje at 6, it shouldn't mean M Vunipola and it shouldn't mean B Vunipola unless he's totally on his A game.

BigG8, I think Mark Wilson could have a big shout. Big although not quite PSDT sized, physical and generally underrated this could be right up his boulevard.

It's all about the English, right?
 
Sam Skinner is another option who has been understandably overlooked due to being missing through injury. Primarily a lock but can easily play 6 and has done at international level. 6 ft 5 and 113kg would put him the mix too if he stays fit and is in form. His size and versatility means he can also be a lineout option and cover lock if needed.
 
TRF_Olyy said:
I don't like Itoje at 6 at all tbh, keep him in the donkey row (even when he played flank for England he packed down in the 2nd row at scrumtime more often than not).
Cunderhill vs SA is a weird one because they did very well in SA but then didn't do much in the RWC final. I'd say it was more of a pack effort than lack of meat on the flanks - both Vunipolas were poor 19/20, and we lost Sincklers carrying/clearing a couple of minutes into the game.

Obv I'm a bit biased but I think Cunderhill is the best flank partnership available - both are decent carriers (Curry a bit better), and Curry is a reasonable lineout option (he was used a decent amount during the RWC after everyone was nashing their teeth about us not having a lineout option in the backrow) and I think pairing them with a better 8 than last season's Binny will see them shine properly again.
I'll leave it to others to suggest who to put at 8 because I can barely remember the 6N and every team of the week/team of the tournament I just quickly googled had either Alldritt or Curry there, which doesn't help.
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I do remember Itoje being a lock at scrumtime, was it ever said by coaches if that was just down to him being a better scrumagger or was there another reason? In fairness, there is a good deal of projection with regard to Itoje at six and I am basing a lot off traits given it's a little while since he played there?

There are a lot of aspects I like about a Curry and Underhill partnership, there's a lot of hard hitting, strong rucking and dog in it. I'd probably be pretty happy with them if the series was vs NZ or Australia. I do worry about their carrying impact and yes the lineout. As you say yourself at they are probably decent and reasonable in those areas. I think they will work probably really well against every team except France and SA. England simply has more physical firepower than most countries. So both together work really well in the English system. They don't need to be great first wave carriers there's five or six players around them who can get the momentum going and they are both well able when they're on the front foot, with Curry having ability as a linkman.

For the lineout there's enough ability there for most teams and I think England don't care as much about possession that don't care as much about possession. As long as they can make their 'dominant tackles' and get the odd turnover Jones is more than happy. Unfortunately on paper at least that probably won't work as well against SA. If they have the ball all day they will tire you down from tackling such big men and you don't tire them down by putting them on the back foot. You're also probably much less likely to make a dominant tackle vs them. There's a good chance SA have the best lineout in the world and while I do like Ryan and Itoje as defensive jumpers they would have a very difficult task. Our own hooker would also have to be perfect. With Itoje 'only' being 6'5" SA would have a significant height advantage across the back five. Which makes my last worry about Curry and Underhill together is that they kind of tie your hands a bit in regards to your front five selection, particularly if Vunipola is at 8. I was looking through some past games there for stats and I was surprised to see how few games Curry and Underhill have started together recently. Of England's last five games against SA (all since 2018) they only both started the WC final

I wrote all of that but I'm not completely against Curry and Itoje they're just worries I have about their partnership and I don't think I'd be mad if they end up lining out together. I have genuine worries about whoever we put at 6. I am probably basing a good bit off perception which is pretty dangerous.

I must admit as I wrote my post I did think why am I so certain Vunipola should be the starting 8? If he plays like he did in the Heineken Cup knockout stages you have to play him but he was incredibly average at times last year. It was not a great six nations for number 8's outside Alldritt, even if Stander was returning to some form (who fits the physicality and carrying I want but not the lineout ability). I honestly believe it's a great pity Doris got knocked out so early and there's actually a lot of potential for a backrow of him at 8 and Curry and Underhill on the flanks.

Wilson and Skinner have the profile to give what I'm talking about but I would like to see more from (and admittedly of) them.

Of course given how attritional the backrow is you have to wonder how much choice will actually be available come the test matches.
 
Very inspiring big ginger 8, I thank you. You triggered a very useful discussion with the contributions of TRF_Olyy, Old Hooker, and worthy regulars like The Alpha Bro, or The Oggmonster.

And you are addressing two issues about which I am scratching my head too.

(i) weight in the scrum and

(ii) enough beef in the back row.

Issue (i) is the memory of 11 years back when Vickery was taken apart by The Beast and Alun Wyn Jones proved too lightweight in the pack. Adam Jones and Simon Shaw were needed. Lions in South Africa that was. Quite an obvious reference point.

AND the world cup final.

And 2017 New Zealand - constant wobbles in the scrum for the Lions. Furlong, a star player of the guests, looked really bad. But I am convinced that was due to lack of support. Front five is a unit! Being upstaged by the All Blacks in the scrum, that is man bites dog. Think of 2003 when England prevailed in New Zealand having to push with two man down. And it was no problem.

The only positive about 2017 was, with a smirk, that the AB tactics were a sign of respect. As normally the Kiwis would feel above employing old fashioned ploys like that.

Looking at the mix of players present, the talent is spread in a very lopsided way. Talking about issue (ii) from above. The best back rows are Curry, Tipuric, Underhill, and Watson. For the Lions in South Africa, I would not consider Watson an option at eight. And there is CJ Stander. But he is a rather small number 8 as well.

Playing three of those five, impressive player by player, would look like fielding a back row consisting just of three number sevens. That would take it a bit too far. Especially against the Bocks.

More bulk is offered by Wainwright, Wilson and Vunipola. The latter when in form. But that is definitely a question mark, valid point. Next would be Navidi and Ritchie. Very plucky, but yes, no Jerome Kainos indeed. Could they play second row like him?

That does not apply to a bruiser like Ross Moriaty either. Van der Flier and Bradbury have got their merits as well. But there are not quite at the level of the aforementioned yet.

Admission: That is all based on what those individuals have proven at international level to date. Having Deegan, Doris, Skinner, Haining, or Shields in the back of my head. Let alone possible bolters like this Ryan Baird, Youngs, Davies, Basham, Edwards, Matt Fagerson, Ellis, Armand, Simmons, Mercer, or Earl.

(My assumption is that O'Mahoney, Faletau and surely Robshaw or Wood won't be under consideration any more a year from now.)
 
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big ginger 8 said:
I'd be interested in people's thoughts about the Lions deploying a 'big 6' for this tour? I think its been mentioned a few times but mostly offhandedly and I'm after reading an article that got me thinking about it again. Fair warning this might ramble, as I'm trying to figure out my own thoughts on the matter.

Obviously SA have had great success playing PSDT (6'6" 120kg) on the blindside and England have had more...mixed success with playing Lawes there. Of course there is the argument that there's no point trying to beat SA at their own game which definitely has its merits.. However, I do have some concerns about the quality of the blindesides available to us. That is at least partially because my ideal 6 is in the mould of a Ferris (6'4" 112kg) or Kaino (6'5" 110kg). That's not to say I don't think the available options are good players, most of the name thrown about are definitely test match quality, I just feel a lot of them are more openside/blindside hybrids. I'm also probably influenced that knowing what we know now my starting 7 and 8 would be Curry and Vunipola. Against SA good set piece is vital and I think the third backrower has to be good in the lineout. Underhill doesn't have that ability to my knowledge and I don't particularly like the balance with any of O'Mahony, Ritchie or Tipuric.

If we're defining the 'big 6' as someone with the size of a secondrow and the athleticism of a backrower then Itoje is the obvious frontrunner to my mind even if it's not the case in Eddie Jones'. He's obviously got the ability at the breakdown, in the lineout and in defence and I think he's an underrated carrier, especially as he would likely be freed up to carry a bit wider than usual.

Where it would get tricky would be if you were planning this as a definite tactic rather than just an option who could you play in place of Itoje (6'5" 115kg) if he was unavailable for the position. In terms of players that have played internationally at both secondrow and blindeside for any of the Lions nations, Lawes (6'6" 111kg), Henderson (6'6" 117kg) and Beirne (6'6" 113kg) are the ones that come to mind (maybe Kruis as well?). Certainly the prevailing opinion of English fans on this board seems to be that Lawes shouldn't be played at 6 but I do think he was growing into the position as the 6N progressed. Henderson due to necessity hasn't played there in yonks which is a bit of a pity. He's a infuriatingly inconsistent which is a pity as there's a lot of obvious talent there. Gatland did seem to get the best out of him on the last Lions tour. I question if he still has the pace he had when he first burst onto the scene. Part of me would love to see him tried there in a warm up game but given he's unlikely to play there for club or country before the Lions he's pretty much a no go. Beirne would have been a borderline at best tourist before his injury and since rightfully no one has included him. I certainly wouldn't want him to start at secondrow against SA, however I do think there is merit to considering him as a blindside but it would be hugely dependent on an upcoming season which is not a great think to be relying on at the moment. He does have a lot of attributes for a modern blindside. He's an excellent poacher, a very good lineout defender and very comfortable in the wider channels. I really do think blindside is his best position, unfortunately he picked the wrong province to play for if he wanted to wear 6. I have some hope that the signing of Snyman for Munster and the potential emergence of Ahern might see Beirne shifted to 6 and O'Mahony to 7.

I mentioned in the OP that Ryan Baird (6'6" 103kg, definitely heavier than that now, that was weight upon entering the academy) could be a bolter for this role, he has the athletic traits you like to see ( did not want that to embed, and it's meant to start at 4:48) but more than anyone really would have needed a full season to be in with a chance so he's a non-runner.

Stepping away from the uniform 'big 6' if you want a more physical, ball carrying option who's good in the lineout there's three number 8's at Leinster with experience at blindside in Conan, Doris and Deegan. The first two being more likely than the last to be in with any shout. I realise I've named four Leinstermen there but I'm not championing them (Conan and Doris are the only ones with any realistic chance) I'm just very familiar with them and they exemplify a lot of the qualities I'm talking about. I'm sure there's a number of players across the other nations who check a similar number of boxes in the style I want.

So it would appear from my analysis that Itoje is the only realistic option if we want to go this route for the Lions so it should only be an option and not our plan. I appreciate I've named a lot of players so it's totally fair to talk about them and why I'm wrong about what they can or cannot do but I would also appreciate your opinions about whether I'm right that we at least need a more physical six even if we don't go with this 'new' fad (secondrow-blindside hybrids are hardly new) or should we go with dual opensides or a more rangy option.

Disclaimer, like most of you it's been a minute since I've watched a full game so my picture of players is in full off-season mode and more hazy than usual.
Click to expand...

Adam beard?
And put curry at 8?
 
Yeah Beard. That is worth a look.

But first and foremost, I felt big relief that someone addressed and second-guessed the Lawes-Itoje question. This is very heartfelt for me. What a relief not to be the only one.

And it matters. Saw about ten Lions selection published in the last 12 months. Most had Ryan and Itoje among a couple of very few other fairly universal choices. The exception were a few who worked on the assumption that Alun Wyn Jones would be available. Then the choice is easy. But I do not assume that either.

Ryan is an obvious choice. But he is rather lightweight. That is a meaningful demand to whoever is joining him.

Itoje – Lawes, to me it is such an obvious choice.

Early in his pro career, Lawes was traumatized by the responsibility that comes with ball carrying. That definitely changed. But there is so much more to expected of a flanker, even at 6. Defending against backs, getting around the park to provide superior numbers and the battle of the breakdown.

At the highest level that is big hits, ok there might not be much between the two.

But the art is winning possession. That is a missing part in the skill profile of Henderson or Jonny Gray to be first choice in a Lions back row. But even more so in the case of Courtney Lawes.

It is not that easy for big men to emulate Pocock, McCaw, or Warburton in that respect. Few of that taller kind shine here. Such exeptions are Pieter Steph DuToit, Iturria, Beirne or … Itoje.

A first warning shot in the hapless 2005 tour to New Zealand was what was considered a mauling the Lions suffered in their defeat against the Maoris. They fielded the biggest front five they could. To no avail as the skillfull breakdown work of a lightweight Maori back row of Jonno Gibbes, Marty Holah, and Angus MacDonald was a lesson. Taught by a second XV of New Zealand to a side of the top internationals of the home nations.

I am only able to see one valid argument in favour for Lawes in the back row rather than Itjoje: He just does not have the engine like Itoje to do his work in the engine room. And still be energetic enough to meaningfully contribute in open play. For the Lions, priorities are different.

I meant to end by apologizing for bringing up the painful experience of 2005. But while I wrote, the breathtaking contribution of the previous post came in.
 
Re back row selection for me. I'd be gauging who the refs are going to be. If it's garces or his ilk you need a big unit at 6. Part of the reason why England never got a foot hold in w/c final was his interpretation of the breakdown.
Within the first 5 minutes they poached the ball well twice, looked at garces for the penalty. He instead allowed SA that extra few seconds to allow player to arrives to clear out.
Nigel owens or Wayne Barnes would of pinged the saffers twice in that first 5 mins and then we have a different game.

So in essence if you take away jackling/poaching from a smaller 6s armoury. You take away their main strength which is speed and agility to get over the ball. Invariably you get few jackle specialists who are 6 ft 5 and 18 stone +
 
FrankfurtRugbyWatcher4 said:
Why?
(This is a curious "why." Not a doubtfull one.)
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He's just not got the physicality at international level - I don't mean the odd big tackle but his scrummaging isn't upto standard (especially against a monster SA pack) and his tight carrying is poor
At international level he's more suited to blindside and (I hold my hands up) he had a good 6N there. However I think there's many better options at 6 for Lions and for England there.

Wouldn't be overly adverse to him touring because he covers two positions and is very experienced, however he wouldn't be anywhere near my test team
 
To sum it up, there is not too much in favour of Lawes playing at flanker. (But also something important againt Itoje at lock.) There are rather a couple of concerns against it (mostly his lack of abilities to steal possession at the breakdown, besides running lines or him being prone to cause penalties.) LIONSxv stressed the importance of the breakdown work. And the imperative to adjust to the "style" of the referee. A work-on for Lawes, something he might iron out. At the moment it counts against him, especially in that flanker role. With all due respect to TRF_Olyy's opinion.

So Itoje satisfies that crucial jackling/poaching requirement so much better when competing for a spot in the back row. However, there is a main deficiency for him to be a satisfying choice to start at lock:

The weight he is not able to add in the scrum. It matters a lot against South Africa. And it is not a real strength of James Ryan either. Something that needs to be compensated. Given Ryan's many other talents. Itoje next to him does not provide that. Such a choice would rather aggravate the issue.

How Itoje made a nuisance of himself against the All Blacks in 2017 in overall play merits cult status. But there is also the picture in my head of Dan Cole being taken apart in the scrum in the world cup final. Tough for any England supporter to remember. But I, from a Northern Hemisphere point of view, found it even harder to see Itoje in such situations popping up in the scrum, rather than helping Cole. His team lost the Word Cup final in the scrums. And Itoje was just throwing in the towel. Letting his mates down, sorry for being so outspoken (and his maturity when not being a good loser later on and refusing the wear the silver medal. Such a bright young man otherwise.)

The possibility is back for the scrum being a contest. One recent achievement of the World Cup and the game at the sharp end. That has to be borne in mind against an opponent like South Africa. Lock does therefore not look like the best use of Itoje. As I stressed earlier, the scrummaging problems for the Lions in 2017 when he was paired with Alun Wyn Jones are further evidence. Very unexpected at the time.

Itoje is one of the trump card of this Lions team, but not at lock.

Other options to complement James Ryan in the engine room other than Lawes? There is also some depth needed for such a tour. (This question by the way answers what TRF_Olyy picked up.)

Well, there are clearly not as many riches in this department as with wing, open side flanker, or fullback. All alternatives have got some merits but lack the excellence of the choices elsewhere. When I think of Jake Ball, Tom Kruis, Joe Launchbury, Adam Beard, or Charlie Ewels (in that order.) Nick Isekwe measuring 6 ft 7 establishing himself as an international would improve the situation a lot. Outside shot 6 ft 8 Jean Kleyn of Munster and Ireland as well.

Iain Henderson is the best footballer of them, but not my choice in the starting XV. For the sake of maximising bulk. That is the problem with Cory Hill or Jonnie Gray. And neither Gray nor Henderson are an answer when searching for a big number 6 (that breakdown again.)

Conclusion: Itoje in the back row, Ryan in the shadow starting XV with either Lawes (if he still makes it agewise) or Isekwe (if he already makes it experiencewise) backed up by Henderson and Ball would make the best of that situation.
 
....so who are the best scrummaging locks on offer, in all of your, better than my, opinions?

I hear some saying Itoje is a good scrummager, others saying he's not so good, Ryan is perhaps light, ...

I feel like there are 4 star players and you should try and find the right 5th player to complement them in your back 5, and see how that looks. Maybe it doesn't look great, then you might have to leave one out. Itoje, Ryan, Curry, underhill. Itoje can play lock and blindside, Curry, or Even underhill can play 8 if needed. Curry and underhill are both good carriers and, if you have tuilagi in the centres you probably don't need to worry there. So if you are concerned about bulk and line out, then find someone big to fit the hole, but don't do it just to try and match the boks, because you won't match the boks, so try and find someone fit and disruptive to suit the style you can bring with the rest of your players, and if you are worried about the scrum maybe someone who is good in the scrum.

With these ideas in mind you are looking for a lock, with Itoje at blindside, or a blindside, with Itoje at lock. And curry or underhill plays 8. so I admit you are already playing someone somewhat out of position but let's try it. So, Adam beard has played 6, could play there with Itoje at lock? Jake ball seems to me like he is quite fit and a strong scrummager, as a lock option with Itoje at 6? Or maybe there is an 8 who is an excellent line out option?
 
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We do need to be careful that we don't play into SA hands by trying to go like for like at 6. So much of what we are basing our assumptions on is borne out of the wc final. Where SA played out of their skins, England were poor and garces decided that he wasnt going to ref the breakdown.An area I where I believe England would of heavily targeted.

If the breakdown is referred properly its a 50/50 tour imo. We have lots of talent in back row and is an area where I believe we are better than SA. However if it becomes a free for all at the breakdown so much of what tipuric, curry, Watson and underhill offer is lost.
If we try and play SA at SA game we loose. If we are smart and gain partity at the set piece, whilst keeping dynasism in the back room and in our backs. I believe the lions will win 2-1
 
Irrespective of where he's playing I'd have Kruis on the plane and probably straight in the test team. Not a highlight reel player, but teams just seem more solid when he's around. Heavyweight, strong, grafting and excellent in the line out which seems to fit the spec perfectly for this trip.

Getting the right props will be crucial. TH should be a straight fight between Sincks and Furlong. At LH Sutherland has had a breakthrough season but if he's still around Marler will be close.
 
LIONSxv said:
We do need to be careful that we don't play into SA hands by trying to go like for like at 6. So much of what we are basing our assumptions on is borne out of the wc final. Where SA played out of their skins, England were poor and garces decided that he wasnt going to ref the breakdown.An area I where I believe England would of heavily targeted.

If the breakdown is referred properly its a 50/50 tour imo. We have lots of talent in back row and is an area where I believe we are better than SA. However if it becomes a free for all at the breakdown so much of what tipuric, curry, Watson and underhill offer is lost.
If we try and play SA at SA game we loose. If we are smart and gain partity at the set piece, whilst keeping dynasism in the back room and in our backs. I believe the lions will win 2-1
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I agree, you won't beat South Africa at their game. And there is no like for like. On the one hand you have psdt, a world class blindside who is also a world class lock, on the other hand you can choose either a world class lock to play blindside or a world class blindside to play blindside, not both.

wilson is pretty good in the line out, and has pace and dynamism to support an alternative style, so what if you went
ryan
Itoje
Curry
Underhill
Wilson

is there enough grunt in there to gain parity in the scrum, assuming your best scrummaging front row?

I've watched a lot of all blacks South Africa games over the years and when they win its always been the same way. We always try and run around them, but when we can't lay the foundation we fail. So I can see where people are coming from when they are looking for some more bulk and power up front, because we've needed it in the past even when not trying to beat them at their own game.

the Northern hemisphere game has been fine tuned in recent years though, for some time they have been good at maintaining possession and grinding away, but in the past it has been insufficient because while trying to get to the try line by moving 5 metres per minute, you would eventually fail. But in recent years England, Ireland, and wales have all had times of extreme perfection in this style. Ireland and, particularly, wales have done this without strong ball carriers, though they have used some bulk. Then at times they have had insufficient bulk for this style, I'm thinking Leinster against Saracens here. Actually that's not a bad analogy, because the springboks could bully you in that same way. Of course, I'm oversimplifying things.

On the other hand, you might not be able to outskill the springboks either. You'll win by being better organised, and outsmarting them.

trying to beat them at their own game with size and height:
Richie gray vs eben etzebeth
Adam beard vs Lood de jager
Mari Itoje vs Peter Steph du toit
Tom Curry vs siya kolisi
Tadgh Beirne vs Duane vermeulen

you lose that game
 
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