Your Lions Squad Based on this Season?

[Leonormous Boozer]

Based on this season Russell shat the bed in the world cup, went drinking rather than play the 6 nations and hasn't exactly taken Racing to the next level. His stock has risen on account of being out of the picture more than anything else in my opinion.

Farrell is a good bit in front of the rest but 10 has quickly become a weak spot for the Lions with Sexton's decline.

 

[General Melchett]

Based on this season Russell shat the bed in the world cup, went drinking rather than play the 6 nations and hasn't exactly taken Racing to the next level. His stock has risen on account of being out of the picture more than anything else in my opinion.

Farrell is a good bit in front of the rest but 10 has quickly become a weak spot for the Lions with Sexton's decline.

Agree Russell was pish v Ireland in the WC and the less said about the 6N beergate the better but having watched most of Racing's games this season his form for them has been very good and he is held in high regard by the club and their supporters. Since the WC Scotland's pack and overall defence are functioning much better (thanks to Tandy and de Villiers) and Russell hasn't played behind them yet so will be interesting to see how he kicks on when he (presumably) comes back for the next international.

I think Sexton's problem is whether, at his age, he can handle a brutal Lions tour in between two seasons for Leinster and Ireland. If he's looking to prolong his career for both Leinster and Ireland then taking a break next summer may be the smart thing for him to do.

 

[munstermuffin]

Based on this season Russell shat the bed in the world cup, went drinking rather than play the 6 nations and hasn't exactly taken Racing to the next level. His stock has risen on account of being out of the picture more than anything else in my opinion.

Farrell is a good bit in front of the rest but 10 has quickly become a weak spot for the Lions with Sexton's decline.

To be fair Russell has been very good for Racing. And while not at top of game. Still ahead of Sexton. But well it is expected also given where both are in careers.

 

[Leinster Fan]

To be fair Russell has been very good for Racing. And while not at top of game. Still ahead of Sexton. But well it is expected also given where both are in careers.

To be fair, Sexton has been top notch for Leinster this season as well. Don't think he's the best option for the Lions but wouldn't count Russell ahead of him on the basis of club form.

 

[munstermuffin]

To be fair, Sexton has been top notch for Leinster this season as well. Don't think he's the best option for the Lions but wouldn't count Russell ahead of him on the basis of club form.

But this I don't think. He's been in and out but not brilliant. No fault as his aim is to peak in March to May. But overall I'd have Russell ahead of him based on form overall this year easily enough. Watched Racing alot and he has been very influential in alot of their positive work there.

Again I'm not saying he is better than Sexton. Just has had better fprm overall from Sept to Feb

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Agree Russell was pish v Ireland in the WC and the less said about the 6N beergate the better but having watched most of Racing's games this season his form for them has been very good and he is held in high regard by the club and their supporters. Since the WC Scotland's pack and overall defence are functioning much better (thanks to Tandy and de Villiers) and Russell hasn't played behind them yet so will be interesting to see how he kicks on when he (presumably) comes back for the next international.

I think Sexton's problem is whether, at his age, he can handle a brutal Lions tour in between two seasons for Leinster and Ireland. If he's looking to prolong his career for both Leinster and Ireland then taking a break next summer may be the smart thing for him to do.

That probably came across a bit harsh on Russell but it's more to point out how harshly Sexton has been judged. Since the world cup Sexton has lost one game while captaining club and country and you'd swear he hasn't done one good thing this season reading this thread and elsewhere.

Sexton was the best player in the world two years ago and was probably top 5-10 for years before that too, he's still being held to those standards and judged relative to them while Russell and Biggar, and probably even Farrell, are being judged relative to the level all four are realistically at right now - very good 10s falling short of what world class has been the last 20 years or so.

Farrell is a good bit in front of the rest...

 

[munstermuffin]

That probably came across a bit harsh on Russell but it's more to point out how harshly Sexton has been judged. Since the world cup Sexton has lost one game while captaining club and country and you'd swear he hasn't done one good thing this season reading this thread and elsewhere.

Sexton was the best player in the world two years ago and was probably top 5-10 for years before that too, he's still being held to those standards and judged relative to them while Russell and Biggar, and probably even Farrell, are being judged relative to the level all four are realistically at right now - very good 10s falling short of what world class has been the last 20 years or so.

The issue is Sexton has been in and out of team due to Irish players rested etc. And this is based just on form over 6months or so nothing more. Sexton has played in winning teams but wasn't the reason they were winning or the guy who was telling difference. Wasn't poor either or anything

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

The issue is Sexton has been in and out of team due to Irish players rested etc. And this is based just on form over 6months or so nothing more. Sexton has played in winning teams but wasn't the reason they were winning or the guy who was telling difference. Wasn't poor either or anything

It's hard to be the guy making a telling difference in a squad that has won 21 games in a row. Being the captain should be considered a massive positive though.

I can't say I've watched the Top14 this year but in the Heineken Cup Russell got Racing the result in Thomond with a great performance but got carried by Iribaren in the home leg and was hardly a world beater in the Sarries games (one against their B team) either. If you're to ignore long term implications and just consider picking a team for a hypothetical game tomorrow Leinster wouldn't swap Russell for Sexton and Racing wouldn't swap in reverse, Ireland wouldn't make that swap - Scotland might...

 

[big ginger 8]

Agree Russell was pish v Ireland in the WC and the less said about the 6N beergate the better but having watched most of Racing's games this season his form for them has been very good and he is held in high regard by the club and their supporters. Since the WC Scotland's pack and overall defence are functioning much better (thanks to Tandy and de Villiers) and Russell hasn't played behind them yet so will be interesting to see how he kicks on when he (presumably) comes back for the next international.

I think Sexton's problem is whether, at his age, he can handle a brutal Lions tour in between two seasons for Leinster and Ireland. If he's looking to prolong his career for both Leinster and Ireland then taking a break next summer may be the smart thing for him to do.

While he might have changed his mind since Sexton has previously said he's targeting this Lions tour as his last hurrah.

I think the only 10 available you can say has definitely been better is Farrell, and Sexton has outplayed Russell and Bigger in direct match ups last season.

People also seem to be negating that he's obviously considered a leader has experience of two 'successful' Lions tours starting 5 of the 6 tests.

 

[General Melchett]

While he might have changed his mind since Sexton has previously said he's targeting this Lions tour as his last hurrah.

I think the only 10 available you can say has definitely been better is Farrell, and Sexton has outplayed Russell and Bigger in direct match ups last season.

People also seem to be negating that he's obviously considered a leader has experience of two 'successful' Lions tours starting 5 of the 6 tests.

If he's fit, in form and up for one last hurrah then fair enough but at 35 I just think it's going to be a bit of a tall order especially if he's played a lot of top level rugby in the first half of 2021.

As far as head to heads go I think next year's 6N matches will be the final and most crucial auditions as far as selection goes.

 

[munstermuffin]

It's hard to be the guy making a telling difference in a squad that has won 21 games in a row. Being the captain should be considered a massive positive though.

I can't say I've watched the Top14 this year but in the Heineken Cup Russell got Racing the result in Thomond with a great performance but got carried by Iribaren in the home leg and was hardly a world beater in the Sarries games (one against their B team) either. If you're to ignore long term implications and just consider picking a team for a hypothetical game tomorrow Leinster wouldn't swap Russell for Sexton and Racing wouldn't swap in reverse, Ireland wouldn't make that swap - Scotland might...

Exactly as I'm not saying Russell is better than Sexton. More has had better form in my opinion by a bit. Yes Sexton was captain and yes but more so.

Sexton was not great for Ireland this year. Yes I agree Russell wasn't for Scotland either. Sexton played 3 games for Leinster this season and was average. And did not play over 60 mins in 2 of those games.

Hard to say he has been in great form and a great captain this year. For Ireland he is not best suited as captain. I think Leinster agree too. He gets frustrated easy as a captain.

 

[Leinster Fan]

Sexton played 3 games for Leinster this season and was average.

You're either misremembering (is that a word?) those games or didn't watch them cause average is the last word I'd have used to describe his performances.

It's not an awful lot to go on but he did have a genuine if short period of good form for Leinster before getting injured.

 

[munstermuffin]

You're either misremembering (is that a word?) those games or didn't watch them cause average is the last word I'd have used to describe his performances.

It's not an awful lot to go on but he did have a genuine if short period of good form for Leinster before getting injured.

In 3 games. He wasn't phenomenal. Not poor but won't over state his performances. Factor in 1 game was against Treviso. But to say in 3 games he was excellent is a bit overstating

 

[Leinster Fan]

In 3 games. He wasn't phenomenal. Not poor but won't over state his performances. Factor in 1 game was against Treviso. But to say in 3 games he was excellent is a bit overstating

Well he got man of the match in Lyon (although it really should have been Josh) and the entire team was playing out of their skin in Northampton before he got injured.

It's not worth going around in circles over this and he's definitely played better but it's just wrong to say he was average.

 

[munstermuffin]

Well he got man of the match in Lyon (although it really should have been Josh) and the entire team was playing out of their skin in Northampton before he got injured.

It's not worth going around in circles over this and he's definitely played better but it's just wrong to say he was average.

But in my opinion he was not good enough to say he was better than Russell or Farrell based on this season. Both Russell and Sexton were poor at RWC and ok in 6N well Sexton.
From what I seen at club level. Russell has been very good for Racing.
Sexton gets tougher judging as only 3 games. Treviso he was good against a terrible Treviso, vs Lyon he was good but turned over ball very softly in 1 instance and vs Saints he did same and missed a tackle that he himself said was poor.

Just an opinion as I said based both being average to poor nationally and then in club games. 1 guy with 3 games and 178mins vs another with 15 games.

As I said it is unfair balances but in the thread based on this season.
Russell has Sexton for age. And for form this season Russell easily has Sexton but that is easily due to paying more consistently and having impact in a lot of those games.

To say Sexton was finding form against a Treviso team that has regressed so much, a poor Saints team in Europe and Lyon is lunacy. It was average in my view of Sexton. Not saying he is an average player or if I was picking the Lions Russell is ahead of him as you bring in many more factors. (Although Sexton has not got durability to last the demands of the tour you'd feel) But based solely on form it is madness to see how on 178minutes over 3 games against average at best opposition he was on form. And in 1 of those games (vs Saints) he was his own critic even saying he was not great. Not poor but had a lot of room to improve in his game. And coincidently that was his last game for Leinster this year.

 

[Leinster Fan]

But in my opinion he was not good enough to say he was better than Russell or Farrell based on this season.

Well that's fair and like I've said earlier in this thread I wouldn't have him on the plane to SA if we were picking tomorrow. I just don't think he's been as poor as some make out or that he's as far away from the others (especially Russell) as a lot of people have been saying. He's been far from his best but the reality that no 10 has shot the lights out this season and whenever rugby gets back on the pitch the lions 10 shirt is there for the taking.

Of course the age/durability/injury record factor is also very relevant, as is the question of whether going on the tour would be a good move for him at his age and with his body in the place it is. But from a purely playing perspective, I think it's fair to say that he's not there right now but isn't necessarily that far off either.

 

[munstermuffin]

Well that's fair and like I've said earlier in this thread I wouldn't have him on the plane to SA if we were picking tomorrow. I just don't think he's been as poor as some make out or that he's as far away from the others (especially Russell) as a lot of people have been saying. He's been far from his best but the reality that no 10 has shot the lights out this season and whenever rugby gets back on the pitch the lions 10 shirt is there for the taking.

Of course the age/durability/injury record factor is also very relevant, as is the question of whether going on the tour would be a good move for him at his age and with his body in the place it is. But from a purely playing perspective, I think it's fair to say that he's not there right now but isn't necessarily that far off either.

But that is what I'm saying. He hasn't been poor just hasn't been great because Sexton typically aims to peak at times and injury and Covid 19 have deprived him. Russell gets the nod on playing more rugby and performing well.
On this season I think Farrell has been awesome all year but well he is not at 10 always. And Russell has had mistakes but a lot of very good performances in a fun environment. Will that cut it at Lions level. Possibly not but again it's just basing it off form.

Like Dave Kearney has been a form winger for Leinster and on form is a Lions contender. In reality I'm trying to hold in the laugh.

 

[FrankfurtRugbyWatcher4]

Wrote down my 1st "2021 Lions squad" a week after the final whistle 2017 for that draw in The Land of The Long White Cloud. It's just so much fun.
Based on who was then available. And likely to last being in top form given the riches available.
Now every International Saeson, every summer tour or autumn tour saeson, let alone the World Cup is worth a revision. It is just so much fun.
Now here is where we're at in my humble, debatable opinion. It will change in a minute. Well with the next batch of tests. Yeah gimme some.
So I see the intermediate summary like this:
1 M. Vunipola (Evans / Sutherland)
2 McInally (George)
3 Furlong (Sinckler)
4 Ryan (Henderson)
5 Lawes (Ball)
6 Itoje (Stander)
7 Curry (Underhill)
8 B. Vunipola (M. Wilson)
9 Price (Webb)
10 Farrell (Russell)
11 May (Adams)
12 Slade (Johnson)
13 Tuilagi (Daly)
14 Larmour (Stockdale)
15 Hogg (L. Williams)
Hard to leave out Fagerson, Williams, Navidi, Wainwright, Ritchie, Tipuric, H. Watson, G. Horne, Cooney, Carbery, Ford, Anscombe, North, Cokanasiga, Graham, A. Watson. Some of those will make it, as the squad will be larger than 30 in number.
It is clear that the depth could be better at loose head, hooker and lock (especially if Lawes won't be able to last longer than Paulie O'Connell did, same age then, on the 2013 tour.) Given the standards at this level.
Owens, AW Jones, Faletau, Cipriani, J. Davies, Aki, and Parkes won't last that long.
Genge and Gray are too light, to match that opponent in the set piece. After being dismantled 2009 in the scrum and unable to cope with the South African maul, Mears, Vickery, and Alun Wyn Jones had to be replaced to beef up the pack. This happened again to Cole and Itjoje at the world cup final.
Huw Jones, Joseph, and Ringrose have got other frailties.

Rugby World's new issue arrived the day after the above deliberations.
In the heart of it was STEPHEN JONES' ("SH") verdict. On the lions squad of course.
It proved both, that there are few obvious nominations. Like everybody would have, say, Ryan or Farrell pencilled in. And also surprisingly few disparieties. Who would have thought that, despite Jones being opinionated and always his own man.
So were do his choices differ?
To begin with: A big choice is to guesstimate who of the more grizzled players will still be as competitive as now.
And there he believes in the superhuman longevity of Alun Wyn Jones.
FORWARDS
Only four changes. Kruis, Ritchie and Moriaty are in With SH, besides AW Jones. At the expense of Henderson, Ball, Wilson, and Stander. He nominated bigger squad larger than 30. Which allows for Fraser Brown as third hooker, Zander Fagerson and Faletau.
BACKS
More "upheaval." No wonder with the ritches on some positions especially out wide. Or the less clear cut situation at scrum half.
Cooney and Gareth Davies replace Price and Webb, Ringrose does so for Johnson. And the back three is somewhat revamped: Jonathan Davies (via Daly who moves out to wing from centre) Maitland and Watson are inlcuded and Larmour, Stockdale and Hogg are out.
Bigger squad size permits using Youngs, Biggar. And to make the rather unorthodox choice of Irishman Chris Farrell.
A guiding principle for him is size. That explains ignoring Price, Tipuric, Navidi, and Hogg. The new game breaker Larmour is not mentioned at all. But he can't simply have forgotten him.

 

[FrankfurtRugbyWatcher4]

We all like to indulge in it. Look at all the great talent. And then select. A Lions squad is a dream team. And making history is beckoning.
Part of it is this addressing of the "challenges." Exclamations marks. Because those are so much fun.
A guy like Biggar? Or the opposite, one like Russell. That is a conventional challenge. It would also not go away even on the eve of a test match itself. That is category Topic3
However, looking at the selection for summer 2021 needs more. One is to think about bolters. Topic2. That is dreaming. As we simply can not know. Some reason might be to such dreams. Acutally Stephen Jones dreamt a lot.
A bit better to fathom, but still speculative is who will last untill then from proven performers who might age wise be understandably challenged to keep up the standards applicable to a highly competitive situation that selection for the Lions is.
This is Topic1. Identifying possibles, which might be a no brainer today. But for whom, at their stage of the career, a year from now is a very long time. And it is so easy to be below the peak form required. Just think of how Wainwright or Jonny Gray fell out of favour for a while very recently.
It is a whole team:
Healey / Marler
Owens
Nel / Cole
Toner
AW Jones
Lawes
O'Mahoney
Faletau
Murray
Sexton / Cipriani
Maitland
Parkes / Aki
J Davies
Earls
Kearney
A big chance for these player is that there is no tomorrow with the Lions. Current form is all that matters. There is no world cup in a couple of years time to build for. And a team that, more in awe than anything else, was dubbed "dad's army" by the press of their opponents became world champion in 2003.
Out wide when it is about pace, the sell-by-date is lower. Brian O'Driscoll himself was such a case. Jonny May is not on that list though. He will be 31 by then. And said himself that his training regime is so optimized (and hard to keep up) that he would not last as long as he would have in an earlier period.
Also counting againgst those specimens are effects exemplified by Sean McMahon. He played so hard, that aged only 23, he felled compelled to be more economic with his physical exposure and he stopped playing for the Wallabies.
The example of James Haskell is fairly recent too but telling. He did well as a grizzeld warrior in the international arena. But overnight his time was up.
Similarly, somebody like Alun Wyn Jones would go 100 % or not at all. He himself would not accept a role as a "semi-passenger." How could he lead?
The late florish some players enjoy(ed) at Whasps or Peter Stringer's durability is more feasible at club level. Not two echelons higher. So one or two of that list might make it. But it will be hard for any of them. I picked only one from here, Courtney Lawes. And that was exclusively at lock combined with the need for weight and lack of suitable competition there.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

Interesting discussions.

Having only watched the 6 nations games, which to be fair are the most indicative but a very small sample size, biggar has been the best.

now I need to contextualise this: the influence of biggar on how well his team has played has been better than the respective influence of other tens on their teams.

does this mean he would be best for the lions? Depends on what other players are chosen and who the coaches are. Given gatland is the head coach, biggar may be best suited. If The all blacks had to choose between biggar, sexton, Russell, Farrell, and Ford; biggar would be last choice. But for the lions maybe he should be first.

This is a bit like the Jonathan Davies vs other options last time around: it depends on the other players and the style of the team. Jonathan Davies turned out to be by far the best player from either side in that series.

I think they should take three tens, including Farrell, as Farrell at 12 is a good option in my opinion. P.s. why is nobody mentioning Ford?

farrell at 12 also accommodates biggar at ten, providing an additional playmaker.

a gatland game plan would do well with biggar, Farrell, tuilagi.

a different game plan at the other end of the spectrum might prefer Russell/sexton, tuilagi, ringrose.

an in between game plan might prefer Ford/sexton, Farrell, tuilagi

I don't think they should go with an in between game plan. England struggles against the springboks because they have an in between game plan; Wales at one end and New Zealand at the other have a better bet. Of course with better players an in between game plan could work.

I think you are better off going more towards a fast and clever game plan. I guess this isn't what I originally said, but originally my statement was conditional on a gatland type plan being used