Warm Up Match 7: Hurricanes v British & Irish Lions (Wellington)

[valley commando]

Greatest back? I'm not so sure about that. Maybe greatest back from the NH. The greatest back up to now is Dan Carter.

You are both wrong

Good game. Got a feeling there could be a whipping this weekend. If not, it gonna be the 3rd test.

Umaga and Mealamu didn't do anything wrong.

Is your tongue in your cheek are are you an escaped mental patient ? I suspect the latter

 

[valley commando]

Greatest back? I'm not so sure about that. Maybe greatest back from the NH. The greatest back up to now is Dan Carter.

You are both wrong

Good game. Got a feeling there could be a whipping this weekend. If not, it gonna be the 3rd test.

Umaga and Mealamu didn't do anything wrong.

Is your tongue in your cheek are are you an escaped mental patient ? I suspect the latter

Genuinely can't tell if you're being satirical or are genuinely just that defensive.

Nor me you................................well I can actually

 

[dullonien]

I think he should start he has been the form 7 on tour his tackle count is incredible 58 tackle attempts and 58 completed, he is the best ball handling back rower, the quickest back rower and has a proper rugby brain.

Arrg, what's with the wall of reply's Valley?

Anyway, I completely agree with this one. I'd love to know what Tipuric's tackle completion rate has been over the past year-18 months. He goes months on end without missing a tackle, and that's such a big plus to go along with his ball in hand skill. Some will argue that he's a little passive in the tackle, but he puts in his fair share of driving tackles, and also instigates a fair few choke tackles as well. He's not the biggest, so he'll always give-up a little ground in comparison to the likes of Warbs and SOB, but on Saturday it would have been a big bonus to just have someone not let the all black runners slip through. Their offloading game could still be a worry though.

I have maintained for many years now that Tipuric is one of the best all round rugby players in the world. Gatland's game plan doesn't really let his attacking talents shine, hence Warburton and Lydiate being selected ahead of him. Put Tipuric in the all blacks side and I'm fairly confident he's be considered one of the very best, and would have been since 2012 or so.

I hope the next Welsh coach sees this. I'd hope that Gatland does too for the second test, but we all know he prefers both Warbs and SOB (both excellent players in their own rights, when firing at least), so Tips will unlikely feature in the 23. He may get an opportunity off the bench in the dead rubber third test, but that's all!

 

[valley commando]

Arrg, what's with the wall of reply's Valley?

Anyway, I completely agree with this one. I'd love to know what Tipuric's tackle completion rate has been over the past year-18 months. He goes months on end without missing a tackle, and that's such a big plus to go along with his ball in hand skill. Some will argue that he's a little passive in the tackle, but he puts in his fair share of driving tackles, and also instigates a fair few choke tackles as well. He's not the biggest, so he'll always give-up a little ground in comparison to the likes of Warbs and SOB, but on Saturday it would have been a big bonus to just have someone not let the all black runners slip through. Their offloading game could still be a worry though.

I have maintained for many years now that Tipuric is one of the best all round rugby players in the world. Gatland's game plan doesn't really let his attacking talents shine, hence Warburton and Lydiate being selected ahead of him. Put Tipuric in the all blacks side and I'm fairly confident he's be considered one of the very best, and would have been since 2012 or so.

I hope the next Welsh coach sees this. I'd hope that Gatland does too for the second test, but we all know he prefers both Warbs and SOB (both excellent players in their own rights, when firing at least), so Tips will unlikely feature in the 23. He may get an opportunity off the bench in the dead rubber third test, but that's all!

I've only just watched the match (late work) so have gone through the thread responding as I did.
Trouble is Tips should have won another 10 to 15 caps at least and with Gats at the helm till the next WC it'll seriously **** his career, age waits for know man

 

[TRF_Olyy]

My only issue with bringing Tips straight in would be physicality. As Dull mentioned above: Gatland doesn't like using Tipuric, and us being outmuscled last week won't make him turn to a smaller player.
I think any other coach would play him, though.

Tipuric coming off the bench at 60, against tireder defences and weak shoulders would be excellent.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I'm still unsure about Tips, I think he's the perfect example of why Wales are hard to beat, he does almost everything well if not great (ie. He makes all his tackles but won't dominate the collisions.), but he's not the guy to front up and beat NZ and, in my opinion, you do have that with last week's backrow if the second row compliments them better. I'd stick with last week's front row, perhaps rotating Mako and McGarth, start Lawes and Itoje and have Henderson and Kruis on the bench with last week's backrow. It's past the point of arguing for the inclusion of skillful players too, Gatland clearly doesn't want them.

 

[dullonien]

My only issue with bringing Tips straight in would be physicality. As Dull mentioned above: Gatland doesn't like using Tipuric, and us being outmuscled last week won't make him turn to a smaller player.
I think any other coach would play him, though.

Tipuric coming off the bench at 60, against tireder defences and weak shoulders would be excellent.

I don't necessarily think physicality was the big issue. POM and SOB are both physical guys, as was our second row pairing. However it lacked pace, meaning they couldn't get in position to use their physicality, and that just gave NZ pretty much uncontested ruck ball in attack.

The pace of NZ's phase play was relentless at times, and you could see it really taking its toll, especially on AWJ who was really struggling with the pace NZ were playing at.

So imo, we need to look at how we can get some more mobility into that Lions pack. Changing the second rows is a obvious place to start imo, especially with Lawes, Itoje and Henderson in playing so well. The other place is to tinker with the back-row who were far from their best on Sat. The options there would be Warbs (not been playing well), Stander, Tips, or shifting Henderson or Lawes to 6. I've said previously that I'd go for a Stander, Tips, Faletau backrow, that for me is a well balanced backrow with 2 flankers who bring clear unique strengths + the all-rounder in Faletau.

For me POM, SOB, Warburton and even Faletau are all a little too similar. They are all good all-round players, who do lots of things well, but maybe lack real outstanding facets to their game (SOB used to possess crazy carrying ability, but I haven't seen that for a long time tbh). I just don't see how it's a very balanced unit at all. They all deserved their positions for the first test, but a coach needs to look beyond who the individual standouts are and consider the combination, for me Gats failed to do that throughout the side:

- The second-row pairing was ill-balanced, with both Kruis and AWJ similar types of players (plus AWJ looking behind the pace).
- As I've said, the backrow was imo not very well balanced.
- The midfield from 9-13 lacked balance as well. Murray and Sexton complement each other, I don't think Murray and Farrell do. Te'o and Davies have been the stand-out centers, but again the balance there is poor imo.
- Even the back three maybe lacked balance. You've got 3 versatile players, who have very much been considered utility players thus far in their careers. It might have been better to select someone like North who would have offered something different with his power.

Some of this is obviously easier to say with hindsight. At the time I thought it was a decent selection, although would have had Lawes/Itoje in the starting 15.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Agree, Alpha. Tipuric is the kind of player you build a back row around, not someone you slot into a beaten pack in the hope it changes.

Interesting idea having the two locks on the bench. Gatland wouldn't go for it but, to be honest, it sounds decent. Itoje or Henderson could easily play blindside, Lawes and Kruis also have a decent amount of club time there.

 

[munstermuffin]

I think your wrong he will be in the 23

If he is I will be delighted but can't see Itoje or AWJ out and can see Lawes being ahead

 

[Caitlyn Jenner]

You are both wrong

So who would you say it is then? Dan Biggar?
IMO it's between Gareth Edwards, Jonah Lomu and DC. Since I never actually saw Edwards, I'd lean towards one of the other two.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

So who would you say it is then? Shane Williams? Dan Biggar?
IMO it's between Gareth Davies, Jonah Lomu and DC. Since I never actually saw Davies, I'd lean towards one of the other two.

As far as greatness goes I don't think you can beat Lomu. There have been plenty of better players, but as far as legacy, world renowndness and all around greatness goes then it has to be Lomu. Hands down.

 

[Caitlyn Jenner]

As far as greatness goes I don't think you can beat Lomu. There have been plenty of better players, but as far as legacy, world renowndness and all around greatness goes then it has to be Lomu. Hands down.

Yea I guess it really comes down to how you define greatness. Often people look almost only at a player's ability and achievments, but there's so much more that goes into it.
From a lot of stuff I've read and heard, Gareth Edwards was amazing and left quite a legacy too, but you're right... in terms of greatness you can't go past Jonah. The impact he had on the game is unparalleled.

 

[TommiG88]

yes and if TeToiroa hadnt been binned canes wouldve won

You were losing at the time, Lions were 14 points in the lead and with a penalty where we would have kicked the ball to the corner. The Canes never led once during the game.

A Canes player was always going to get binned as your ill discipline was worse than England's, and that's saying something. The Canes coughed up points every time the Lions got into your 22.

 

[MikeTheNative]

Arrg, what's with the wall of reply's Valley?



I have maintained for many years now that Tipuric is one of the best all round rugby players in the world. Gatland's game plan doesn't really let his attacking talents shine, hence Warburton and Lydiate being selected ahead of him. Put Tipuric in the all blacks side and I'm fairly confident he's be considered one of the very best, and would have been since 2012 or so.

100& agree he is kind of wasted in the power game that Wales have played the past few years. Put him in the current Scarlets team and he would absolutely shine. In regards to stopping NZ, the issue last week was nobody was getting in the slow the play down but I think it kind of looked like that was the game plan and the rush defence was trusted to stop it but it clearly didn't work. SOB is a good player but he isn't as good on the floor as Warburton or Tipruic but I think it will be POM making way for Warburton at 6.

 

[Penne Rara]

So who would you say it is then? Dan Biggar?
IMO it's between Gareth Edwards, Jonah Lomu and DC. Since I never actually saw Edwards, I'd lean towards one of the other two.

'tis difficult to compare players pre and post professional era. Physicality was a different matter back then, the players were leaner and massively relied on flair (play what's in front of you, structure was not a thing, well, not what it is now).
Edwards was a special talent, but would he do well in the professional era? We will never know.

And you can't actually compare players from different positions either. Which criterion would you use for that? I see none, except the excitement level they bring to us spectators.

Excitement level:
1 - Edwards
2 - Lomu
3 - Carter

Edwards was a fleet footed player, incredibly fast for a halfback. But he was not just that, he could spot opportunities where most other players would find more intricate ways towards the goal line, and he would react faster than anyone. Just blink and he's already over the line. A deceptive runner, he was flair embodied and could himself change the outcome of a match. He's the most exciting player of these three as far as I'm concerned.

Lomu was the first emblematic physical winger to bless the game of rugby. Running hard and smashing his way through the opposition as if they were insects. This would become his trademark ability and I doubt his former self would be easy to stop by today's standards.

But I still rate Carter as a better all round player which, in the end, is just my point of view. Have we ever seen a better player at consistently making the right decision during his whole career? He had his off days as well, no one is godlike so as to choose the optimal option all the time, but he definitely is on top for the influence he's had on the game during his years in New Zealand.

All in all, it is possible to pick a favorite player, but that's a matter of personal taste above all. One thing is for sure, they would all struggle to play in each other's position.

 

[valley commando]

So who would you say it is then? Dan Biggar?
IMO it's between Gareth Edwards, Jonah Lomu and DC. Since I never actually saw Edwards, I'd lean towards one of the other two.

Gareth Edwards for me, although comparing players from different generations is difficult. he was without question the best of his era.

 

[valley commando]

If he is I will be delighted but can't see Itoje or AWJ out and can see Lawes being ahead

I can't see AWJ in the 23, Gats will have seen the light by now.

 

[ncurd]

TBH I never got excited watching Carter that might be from only ever watching him in a ABs shirt against England or his few World Cup outings.

But he never got my blood flowing in a game. I think most not-Englishmen get the same feeling about Wilko its not they are terrible players by any stretch infact they are probably the two of greatest 10's to grace the game. they just don't excite.


I look at it this way I went to a Premiership Final game back 2004 (which Bath lost). Before it was a Tigers/Sharks game for the last European Championship space every time Jason Robinson got the ball you could feel the entire stadium take an intake of breath in anticipation of what might happen. i just don't feel you get that with Carter.

 

[Truth]

TBH I never got excited watching Carter that might be from only ever watching him in a ABs shirt against England or his few World Cup outings.

But he never got my blood flowing in a game. I think most not-Englishmen get the same feeling about Wilko its not they are terrible players by any stretch infact they are probably the two of greatest 10's to grace the game. they just don't excite.


I look at it this way I went to a Premiership Final game back 2004 (which Bath lost). Before it was a Tigers/Sharks game for the last European Championship space every time Jason Robinson got the ball you could feel the entire stadium take an intake of breath in anticipation of what might happen. i just don't feel you get that with Carter.

I'd describe Jason Robinson as electric when compared to other English backs of his time. When he's running with the ball, his legs look like someone pushed fast forward. The guy was built like he'd bowl you over but as we know, he actually jinked around people cos he had that agility as well.

Carter obviously isn't anything like Robinson. One thing I noticed about Dan Carter in his last few years or so in Super Rugby, is that he wasn't as good as he was when he was coming up and of course, in that Lions series where I think his good form hit its heights. In 2014-2015 Super Rugby seasons he was injured a lot and was pretty average when he was playing for the Crusaders. Cruden IMO was having better seasons. Dan Carter actually returned back to form in the 2015 RWC.

Im not surprised Carter isn't doing too well over there as I think he was losing his game in 2015. He put everything good that he had left into the RWC, especially in the finals games.

 

[Jakedood]

I said a couple of days ago in a post re the test team for next Saturday that I'd put him in the centre with Teo on the bench and was ridiculed by a half wit on here

A half-wit? Thanks haha

Honestly north looked better being involved, however his distribution is still poor... and defensively it was his poor read which allowed Savea through I think, so wouldnt fully trust him in the centre with reads like that

What is needed is for him to take some tips from Jack Nowell and come in off his wing more often, searching for ball off 9 and 10, maybe 12 too, being in and around the centres for when they potentially make line breaks