Wales vs Fiji (14/11)

[Welsh Exile]

I think you can expand it a bit whilst red cards were legitimate it doesn't help the teams they happened against. Through no fault of their own Wales won the the triple crown when the opposing teams weren't given a chance to compete properly. Scotland and Ireland had a player to blame, England had the ref. But it really doesn't help when a section of Welsh fans refusal to acknowledge they won by default it become infuriating.

Said for a long time Gatland the person was less the problem but the tactics he employed which led to watching **** rugby. Its also why I hate watching England ATM and wish I had French dual citizenship.

What do you mean the opposing teams weren't given a chance to compete properly? That's some strange wording in my opinion. You make it sound like their water was drugged before the game or that the ref made one team play blindfolded or something. Red card aren't supposed to help the teams they happen to, that's the point of them. It's on you to keep your discipline and if you don't you only have yourselves to blame you can't sit here and say oh we were unlucky.

As I said intially, the England game definitely fits the lucky criteria more as there was genuine controversy with some of the calls by the ref and we'll obviously never know how the game would've panned out had the calls been different but I think that's also a game where I think England will look at themselves and say we should've won that and on the balance of things didn't deserve to win it. But yeah we'll never know how it would've gone and we definitely got some luck in that one for sure.

 

[Welsh Exile]

The game where Tuilagi got a red card for a high tackle on North as he was diving for the line is the same game where Tuilagi was clotheslined by a Welsh player (Parkes I think?) Who jumped into the tackle and caught him full on in the head, so yeah it did happen...

The same one where Marler got a retrospective ban for the infamous grope? That was quite early on wasn't it? Goes both ways.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

The same one where Marler got a retrospective ban for the infamous grope? That was quite early on wasn't it? Goes both ways.

Not saying Marler was innocent. It's just you mentioned about teams getting a red but Wales not doing anything to deserve a red in the same game. Both instances were the same, dangerous high tackles. One was red carded, one was completely unpunished.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Not saying Marler was innocent. It's just you mentioned about teams getting a red but Wales not doing anything to deserve a red in the same game. Both instances were the same, dangerous high tackles. One was red carded, one was completely unpunished.

Yeah but I was talking in the context of last years championship winning six nations. That was 2020 or am I remembering it wrong. The context of the discussion was Wales' luck in the 2021 6N.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Bit if it's a discussion about how Wales are just generally, throughout the ages, a lucky team then that is different.

 

[ncurd]

Snip

You know when people say about overtly defensive doesn't help. This is it.

All I meant was because one of their players screwed the pooch it meant their team couldn't compete properly. That isn't Wales's fault it also isn't most of the players fault on the other side. I think we all agree with red cards it ruins the contest and that's all the intent implied. If a team gets a red card against us I don't go 'wow were amazing', I think "man we got lucky one of their players was a complete ***, shame about the rest of the game".

I've said many times to you, I don't see the England Wales game as a fair contest and it's impossible to know how an England side (or Wales for that matter) would if performed without a 5 to 14 point handicap. Anyone suggesting they know who would of won without those issues is working in complete guess work.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Bit if it's a discussion about how Wales are just generally, throughout the ages, a lucky team then that is different.

In all honesty, how many times in recent years have Wales been on the receiving end of really poor decisions vs how many times they have been the beneficiaries?

It's not saying the red cards against Wales weren't deserved, they were. It's how Wales have not got red cards when they have done the same themselves. 2021 we obviously have the LRZ try, which to be fair was a grey area. We have the Biggar restart, which clearly was deemed wrong as shown by how refs and players now react in a similar situation where a captain is asked to talk to the team. 2020 we have 1 high tackle punished with a red and another not even a penalty. 2019 we have restarting a game mid-HIA so England are an additional player down. That's 3 games in a row in England vs Wales in which decisions were made that had a significant impact on the game and went in Wales favour, 2 during time off. The Marler incident was one that went in our favour depending on what you think the punishment would have been.

I guess it's a case of asking do you look at these decisions on balance and see a fair contest? How many decisions recently would you say were significantly against Wales or which fundamentally impacted the game in a way that was detrimental to you?

 

[Welsh Exile]

You know when people say about overtly defensive doesn't help. This is it.

All I meant was because one of their players screwed the pooch it meant their team couldn't compete properly. That isn't Wales's fault it also isn't most of the players fault on the other side. I think we all agree with red cards it ruins the contest and that's all the intent implied. If a team gets a red card against us I don't go 'wow were amazing', I think "man we got lucky one of their players was a complete ***, shame about the rest of the game".

I've said many times to you, I don't see the England Wales game as a fair contest and it's impossible to know how an England side (or Wales for that matter) would if performed without a 5 to 14 point handicap. Anyone suggesting they know who would of won without those issues is working in complete guess work.

I think we just see this differently. Nothing you've said there implies that we were lucky to have opposition players sent off for their own poor play. If one of our players gets a really harsh red card then I'm annoyed and say we were unlucky if one of our players gets sent off for stupid play I don't blame our luck or anything I blame the individual who plays for the team so by default the team, coaching staff everyone, especially when it's a stupid one from a senior player like POM. Seriously, if AWJ did something like that I'd be so ****** off with him for losing us the game. As I say, I think we just have see this from different angles.

Even the infamous josh Adam try against England, I accept that it's controversial but hand on heart if England scored a try against us like that I'd be more ****** off at the team for falling asleep and not being street smart than I would at the ref.

 

[Welsh Exile]

In all honesty, how many times in recent years have Wales been on the receiving end of really poor decisions vs how many times they have been the beneficiaries?

It's not saying the red cards against Wales weren't deserved, they were. It's how Wales have not got red cards when they have done the same themselves. 2021 we obviously have the LRZ try, which to be fair was a grey area. We have the Biggar restart, which clearly was deemed wrong as shown by how refs and players now react in a similar situation where a captain is asked to talk to the team. 2020 we have 1 high tackle punished with a red and another not even a penalty. 2019 we have restarting a game mid-HIA so England are an additional player down. That's 3 games in a row in England vs Wales in which decisions were made that had a significant impact on the game and went in Wales favour, 2 during time off. The Marler incident was one that went in our favour depending on what you think the punishment would have been.

I guess it's a case of asking do you look at these decisions on balance and see a fair contest? How many decisions recently would you say were significantly against Wales or which fundamentally impacted the game in a way that was detrimental to you?

But it's not 3 games in a row. As already said Marler should've got red. That was the official ruling. It happened early on in the game so if anything that's a game we should feel aggrieved about and should be crying foul.

It sounds like you genuinely think every Wales V England match is some kind of fix for Wales but like all of us you're extremely biased so probably not the best person to judge. Neither am I obviously that why we just have to accept official rulings and what the ref does on the pitch. Every bloody ruck there's an infringement. There's no consistency with referring it's a flipping lottery.

 

[ncurd]

I think if you look back at the Wales/Ireland thread the Irish fans were definitely ****** off with POM. Some were saying he should never be seen in an Irish shirt again.

That doesn't mean Wales weren't lucky he was a complete a tool.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

But it's not 3 games in a row. As already said Marler should've got red. That was the official ruling. It happened early on in the game so if anything that's a game we should feel aggrieved about and should be crying foul.

It sounds like you genuinely think every Wales V England match is some kind of fix for Wales but like all of us you're extremely biased so probably not the best person to judge. Neither am I obviously that why we just have to accept official rulings and what the ref does on the pitch. Every bloody ruck there's an infringement. There's no consistency with referring it's a flipping lottery.

I don't think there is any "fixing", paying off the ref or anything nefarious. The Marler incident I could accept could have been a red. I asked more generally though if you can really list times you felt the weight of decisions was heavily against you or single very crucial decisions went against you recently?

I don't hold Wales being lucky against Wales, it's not their doing (or if it is, it's a skill worth having). My side is where a series of key decisions go one teams way but that is not recognised. On balance you'd imagine biased fans would see many cases where key decisions went against them so it stands to reason that, as a biased Welsh fan, you should have noticed in the past 3 or so years so really big decisions that went against you or stuff that was missed. The Marler one I'll accept was missed but on balance can you think of many times you felt Wales really got screwed over? If not then, why as a biased fan are you not spotting it? If biased fans spot their team being screwed then it almost stands to reason that if you can't think of times in which you've been screwed then you have been the beneficiary more often than the victim.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I think if you look back at the Wales/Ireland thread the Irish fans were definitely ****** off with POM. Some were saying he should never be seen in an Irish shirt again.

That doesn't mean Wales weren't lucky he was a complete a tool.

Yeah, luck has nothing to do with it for me personally but as said we just clearly see it differently. We are talking about POM here, he's got a bit of a history for this kind of stuff. But yeah we're not going to agree as we just have different definitions of what luck is. Ultimately, for me, luck is something out of you control, if you can control it then it's not unlucky if you **** up, it's poor skill.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I don't think there is any "fixing", paying off the ref or anything nefarious. The Marler incident I could accept could have been a red. I asked more generally though if you can really list times you felt the weight of decisions was heavily against you or single very crucial decisions went against you recently?

I don't hold Wales being lucky against Wales, it's not their doing (or if it is, it's a skill worth having). My side is where a series of key decisions go one teams way but that is not recognised. On balance you'd imagine biased fans would see many cases where key decisions went against them so it stands to reason that, as a biased Welsh fan, you should have noticed in the past 3 or so years so really big decisions that went against you or stuff that was missed. The Marler one I'll accept was missed but on balance can you think of many times you felt Wales really got screwed over? If not then, why as a biased fan are you not spotting it? If biased fans spot their team being screwed then it almost stands to reason that if you can't think of times in which you've been screwed then you have been the beneficiary more often than the victim.

To be perfectly honest I can barely remember last week but I am 100% sure if I wanted to I could go back through all those games and make some cases for some **** going against us. For sure I could. As you admitted Marler is already one and that's not even debatable as it was deemed the ref made a mistake by not red carding him. I can't recall any retrospective bans for Welsh players in England V Wales matches recently.

So you're saying 2019 we were lucky you agree 2020 you were lucky and 2021 was back to us being lucky. Sounds kinda even, you'll probably get the rub of the green at home in a few months.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

To be perfectly honest I can barely remember last week but I am 100% sure if I wanted to I could go back through all those games and make some cases for some **** going against us. For sure I could. As you admitted Marler is already one and that's not even debatable as it was deemed the ref made a mistake by not red carding him. I can't recall any retrospective bans for Welsh players in England V Wales matches recently.

So you're saying 2019 we were lucky you agree 2020 you were lucky and 2021 was back to us being lucky. Sounds kinda even, you'll probably get the rub of the green at home in a few months.

Not quite, 2020 as mentioned we got a red for the high tackle but you didn't for an equally bad high tackle, so in 2020 we didn't get a red we should have but neither did you. Also I didn't go trawling through old games to find this, these are ones that just stick out because they weren't 50/50 incidents.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Not quite, 2020 as mentioned we got a red for the high tackle but you didn't for an equally bad high tackle, so in 2020 we didn't get a red we should have but neither did you.

All of that is irrelevant imo as the Marler red incident was before all of that IIRC? I'm sure there's more bad decisions that went against us in that game too. I remember another high tackle by Lawes I believe on AWJ. Almost knocked him out. But yeah, it's probable that those incidents would've never had happened had the ref done his job (according to an official ruling) and sent him off. The whole momentum of the game would've changed.

I think these discussions are futile. You win some you lose some. Refs are pretty **** these days and it really is whatever happens happens I just looks at who deserves to win. That 2020 game is a good example as we only lost by what 3 points and Marler should've been sent off but we didn't deserve to win that game and even though we did a lot better in the second half we didn't deserve to win that game just like I don't think you did enough last year even though we had some calls that went our way.

 

[dullonien]

I don't think there is any "fixing", paying off the ref or anything nefarious. The Marler incident I could accept could have been a red. I asked more generally though if you can really list times you felt the weight of decisions was heavily against you or single very crucial decisions went against you recently?

I don't hold Wales being lucky against Wales, it's not their doing (or if it is, it's a skill worth having). My side is where a series of key decisions go one teams way but that is not recognised. On balance you'd imagine biased fans would see many cases where key decisions went against them so it stands to reason that, as a biased Welsh fan, you should have noticed in the past 3 or so years so really big decisions that went against you or stuff that was missed. The Marler one I'll accept was missed but on balance can you think of many times you felt Wales really got screwed over? If not then, why as a biased fan are you not spotting it? If biased fans spot their team being screwed then it almost stands to reason that if you can't think of times in which you've been screwed then you have been the beneficiary more often than the victim.

I don't think this is a very productive conversation tbh. There's been a couple of poor refereeing decisions against both sides, more recently in the memory are the ones going in Wales favour from last year when I think skews things slightly (we always put more weight on the more recent experiences). I can list at least one other clear mistake, which was the Anscombe non try where he clearnly got to the ball first. But these things are being refereed live with decisions needing to be made in relative haste, and mistakes will happen. I think we can all agree that when decisions like this go against us it's very difficult to remain subjective though.

I just think that tallying up 'wrong doings' going back a number of years is asking for another train wreck of a thread, and this thread's already been in flames!

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I don't think this is a very productive conversation tbh. There's been a couple of poor refereeing decisions against both sides, more recently in the memory are the ones going in Wales favour from last year when I think skews things slightly (we always put more weight on the more recent experiences). I can list at least one other clear mistake, which was the Anscombe non try where he clearnly got to the ball first. But these things are being refereed live with decisions needing to be made in relative haste, and mistakes will happen. I think we can all agree that when decisions like this go against us it's very difficult to remain subjective though.

I just think that tallying up 'wrong doings' going back a number of years is asking for another train wreck of a thread, and this thread's already been in flames!

More than anything it was just the ones that resulted in changes to the laws / guidance being introduced off the back of them where Wales gained an advantage, it's kinda different to the odd 50/50 calls or missed things that happen every game. I may be wrong but I can't think of other recent instances of a team benefitting from a decision that was deemed so incorrect it resulted in needing to clarify the laws / guidance after.

But yes, thread is like this, largely due to me so will go shtum now.

 

[MikeTheNative]

You guys just forgetting that Anscombe non try that wasn't given a few years ago that WR said should have counted?
It's a bit mad that Wales got 3 red cars for them last 6 nations but I wouldn't call it 'lucky', the teams were rightly punished for their infringement and had to play the the rest of the game without 15 men.
Lucky is that LRZ try which was a knock on, I can get behind that.
But moving on from that, what's Wales done wrong in getting 3 correct decisions for them? It definitely helped them but they still played well in parts, which is something some people refuse to admit for some reason?
Would have Wales beaten England in that 2nd half without the 2 dodgy tries? Nobody can answer that for sure but they did play well in the 2nd half, not sure why that's controversial.

 

[ncurd]

You guys just forgetting that Anscombe non try that wasn't given a few years ago that WR said should have counted?
It's a bit mad that Wales got 3 red cars for them last 6 nations but I wouldn't call it 'lucky', the teams were rightly punished for their infringement and had to play the the rest of the game without 15 men.
Lucky is that LRZ try which was a knock on, I can get behind that.
But moving on from that, what's Wales done wrong in getting 3 correct decisions for them? It definitely helped them but they still played well in parts, which is something some people refuse to admit for some reason?
Would have Wales beaten England in that 2nd half without the 2 dodgy tries? Nobody can answer that for sure but they did play well in the 2nd half, not sure why that's controversial.

Nah not really forgetting that the talk was how Wales didn't reinvent themselves post Gatland due to how the 2021 six nations went in how they are perceived.

Every team should look good against 14 men for prolonged periods of time, claiming superiority over 14 men is a bad look whether they deserved to be at14 men or not.
Wales played well in the second half of the England match no doubt but England had to expend a lot of energy to make up the handicap making it hard to know if they they were playing well against a gassed team or were just playing superior (we'll never really know).

Its not really controversial to acknowledge Wales played well, its the lack of acknowledgement of the mitigating circumstances by certain contingents.

 

[dullonien]

So can we all agree that the reality lies somewhere in the middle? Wales played well in patches, but also playing vs 14 certainly helped at times, especially vs Scotland.

Not sure who else really deserved the ***le either, France played well in parts as well, but fell short vs Scotland and England, and everyone else also dropped a couple each. Based on the final game of Wales vs France, it could be argued that France could have deserved it based on coming out on top in a good game of rugby.

I was never under any illusions that it was an odd tournament. Wales struggled at times, with Biggar etc. looking poor in the first couple of games, but by the end of the tournament, red cards or not, we looked very decent. It makes sense that the red cards helped Wales get over the line in a couple of games + the poor ref decisions in the Eng game, but ultimately Wales just had to play what was in front of them. Did it mask over some issues in the Welsh team, judging by the summer and now autumn, it appears so, but we may not fully know until the next 6 nations.