Wales vs Fiji (14/11)

[TRF_Olyy]

Yeah, this thread is a dumpsterfire,

Please stop arguing,
Please stop making sweeping generalisations against entire nationalities,
Please stop making personal snipes at people

Man I'm so glad I read this thread....

Just one thing being from the Westcountry I always find it amusing when people go on about class and rugby in England. I've known a lot of rugby fans in my life I can think of one who went public school. This is despite having a bunch of friends who went to public school.

The only private school kid I ever played rugby with was in Wales, tbf
I think the stereotype of the "Rugger Bugger" is way wide of the mark, these days - still a bit prevelant in the pro game as the private schools have the money/facilities to invest in top level sports - pretty sure the highest participation in the amateur sport is in the poorer areas of the country, though

 

[Welsh Exile]

You misread me it it's a ******* trashfire. And frankly for all involved a pox on your houses.

I don't want to get too much into but even at elite level the sport has never been as posh in England as many people like to make out. The North/South divide is far far more prevalent that the class one.

I would disagree but only when comparing specifically to Wales. I can see where you're coming from in terms of it being over stated in some regions, perhaps.

My understanding is that the north/ south class divide in England is what led the northern working class to break away and play league.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Tbh the only reason I struggle sometimes is because I find Walesonline absolutely laughable, other than that never had an issue with a Welsh bloke. Plus the fact Adam Beard played for Lions instead of Iain Henderson. Though, thats really just comical now

If addressing some issues, when it comes to abuse, it depends who you're with and how its taken as to whether it's abuse or "banter", but do need to toe the line here a little on the forum. Xenophobia isnt acceptable but when it comes to supporting your countries vs others everyone will have favourites. There is a very healthy ABE mentality in a lot of countries too, but thats not a slight against all English people so much as just enjoying a rugby team losing.

In summary I like welsh people, and dislike the welsh rugby team. Couldnt fully say why but thats just how it feels

Also, everyone wanted Fiji to win. Like it's Fiji

This is fair but then I don't know many Welsh people that don't find Walesonline any other than laughable for 75% of the content they generate. I'd also say, that this is not indicative, or unique to, Wales. I'm sure there are sections of the Irish media who play to a certain audience as well with pundits/journalists who spout a load of bollix.

You know I love Henderson and for sure I agree he's better than beard and I'd have him in a Welsh shirt over Beard in a heartbeat but having said that I don't think Henderson had the best tour and Beard did pretty well by most accounts but yeah, I agree with you.

Not sure what your problem with the Welsh rugby team is. But that's how you feel that's fine. I feel every team will have a few players that grate on other teams. Ireland have Sexton and POM. England has Farrell and Marler and a few others. Wales have Biggar and AWJ etc etc.

 

[TommiG88]

 

[Welsh Exile]

Yeah, this thread is a dumpsterfire,

Please stop arguing,
Please stop making sweeping generalisations against entire nationalities,
Please stop making personal snipes at people


The only private school kid I ever played rugby with was in Wales, tbf
I think the stereotype of the "Rugger Bugger" is way wide of the mark, these days - still a bit prevelant in the pro game as the private schools have the money/facilities to invest in top level sports - pretty sure the highest participation in the amateur sport is in the poorer areas of the country, though

This is why anecdotal evidence is not great as your experiences don't tally up with mine at all but perhaps I'm a bit older and played at a higher level?

 

[ncurd]

The only private school kid I ever played rugby with was in Wales, tbf
I think the stereotype of the "Rugger Bugger" is way wide of the mark, these days - still a bit prevelant in the pro game as the private schools have the money/facilities to invest in top level sports - pretty sure the highest participation in the amateur sport is in the poorer areas of the country, though

Yeah but those private schools also sweep up any kid with talent in the amature game. Milfield tried to recruit my brother in law (and his twin brother) for cricket but his parents decided against it for "reasons" (I don't know them). For rugby and Cricket getting a sports scholarship is almost the first stage of scouting. Its why the stereotype prevails to some extent because a few of these lads still have posh boy accents despite it not really being their background.

 

[Genghis]

Well, I'm Welsh and even I find WalesOnline to be the worst, most inarticulate, badly written and one eyed journalism I've ever read.

It is just click bait for their ads though.

 

[MikeTheNative]

The hypocrisy of some of these posts are infuriating. I keep trying to give this place a chance, because on the whole it's easily the best place there has been to properly discuss rugby, but as a Welsh fan it's been pretty toxic over the last few years.

Good Welsh posters are continually subjected to the type of crap posted above, with a small but very vocal group of primarily English posters spamming every thread involving Wales with stuff like the above, lumping all Welsh supporters into this pigeonhole of whining and being anti english. These views are obviously based on comments sections of other sites where internet is gonna internet, but that just spills over here.

Someone asked earlier in the thread where all the welsh posters are, all sick and tired of the bullshit of this place, that's where!

Maybe some people should just refrain from posting on anything involving wales if it's just gonna be negative nonsense. Maybe the threads will be quiet, but it may allow some constructive discussion to take place and draw some new welsh posters here to help even things up a little. Things are obviously a lot harder when welsh rugby is struggling, seeing so many people taking glee from it.

So sad, and this is coming from someone who's regularly visited these forums for 16 years!

I think people often underrate Welsh players but i get that, people will rate their own players more and often see Welsh players in struggling regional. Often Wales will be the butt of a joke in an unrelated thread, some I are funny so I laugh some are poor effort but I don't really care. The real thing puts me off it seems a number of people can't actually discuss how Wales play. All they seem to discuss is how they 'got lucky with decisions' or that the other team was poor. The straw manning of fanbases happens to a number of teams to be fair but i've seen people point to Welsh fans on twitter to prove their point. It's twitter it's easy enough to find toxic posts from every side with every view. Then you have people's hate of Wales Online, yeah it's trash, everyone in Wales also thinks it's trash, it's like me posting an Daily Mail article thinking that's what all the English think.
Don't want to complain too much and play the 'victim card' but I actually wanted to post about the game Monday morning but after seeing the absolute **** show of a thread i couldn't be bothered and that's why you get less and less people posting.

 

[dullonien]

I think people often underrate Welsh players but i get that, people will rate their own players more and often see Welsh players in struggling regional. Often Wales will be the butt of a joke in an unrelated thread, some I are funny so I laugh some are poor effort but I don't really care. The real thing puts me off it seems a number of people can't actually discuss how Wales play. All they seem to discuss is how they 'got lucky with decisions' or that the other team was poor. The straw manning of fanbases happens to a number of teams to be fair but i've seen people point to Welsh fans on twitter to prove their point. It's twitter it's easy enough to find toxic posts from every side with every view. Then you have people's hate of Wales Online, yeah it's trash, everyone in Wales also thinks it's trash, it's like me posting an Daily Mail article thinking that's what all the English think.
Don't want to complain too much and play the 'victim card' but I actually wanted to post about the game Monday morning but after seeing the absolute **** show of a thread i couldn't be bothered and that's why you get less and less people posting.

That's basically it. I started penning a post about the game itself, congratulating Fiji on playing well in difficult circumstances down a man and bemoaning the way Wales played despite the numerical advantage. But despite almost no involvement with Welsh posters, the thread had already been turned into a why Wales are the most unliked nation in sport, how WalesOnline is a biased (we know, even most the comments on the rugby articles point this out), how we jammied our way to a 6 nation ***le* (partly true, and understandably annoying for non Welsh supporters, but what is Pivac supposed to do, hand the trophy back? Also being hated because of foul play against us is certainly an interesting way to twist things), and somehow Gatland and the roof was also brought up.

Given that it's not the first Wales thread to be derailed in such a way driving me to similar moans about the forum, I've just had enough.

I know that the individual posts aren't too bad at all (apart from some generalisations made, and hypocrisy). I genuinely don't have an issue at all with any of the individual posters, who all contribute greatly to this forum. I suppose part of the problem is that they're the loudest voices in these threads, and drag the whole thing into some mud slinging contest on why we're disliked based on the actions of others (including Gats as Lions coach). If the same comments were interspersed among an otherwise healthy thread about the game then I don't they'd be as big an issue. But I don't see how we can get back to the sort of representation from Welsh posters we used to have (both good and bad) if things continue as they are. It just drives everyone away, because even potential decent posters are forced to defend themselves from the off against a barrage of negativity.

Anyway, I've had my say and I won't hold anything against anyone. I'll see how it goes, I'm not keen on giving-up on this forum that, like I said previously, has been part of my life for such a long time, but there's less and less reasons to post about anything Welsh rugby related.

* BTW, why does the beginning of ***le get censored. Very amusing. Maybe booble will work?

 

[Welsh Exile]

I think some people have a very strange definition of luck.

We got "lucky" in one game last 6N, England. No doubt we had 1 or 2 lucky decisions that went our way in that one but then we were a bit unlucky in the France game depriving us of a grand slam so it kind of evened itself out as it tends to during the course of a championship. Also, I think a majority of England fans, if they were being honest, accepted that they didn't deserve to win that game so, again, in one game where we were lucky we ultimately were the better team on the day.

What it seems like, is that some people think if another player gets sent off then that is lucky for the team (I.e Wales) but I've never understood this. If POM or Fagerson hadn't of been sent off then we would have been unlucky as they were pretty solid red card decisions. Your not lucky for the opposition being stupid and the ref penalising said player but maybe people see luck as different.

I genuinely don't think I've seen anyone on here give Wales any credit whatsoever. It's normally down to the other team not turning up or the ref giving Wales every decision or some **** like that. Funny that that doesn't go both ways though.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Also with regards to people saying if the ref was fair we would've lost against Fiji, I'll go further, if Fiji just had a semi functioning line out we would've lost, even with an extra man. Actually felt bad for them. Especially a 15 point loss, they didn't deserve that.

 

[dullonien]

Also with regards to people saying if the ref was fair we would've lost against Fiji, I'll go further, if Fiji just had a semi functioning line out we would've lost, even with an extra man. Actually felt bad for them. Especially a 15 point loss, they didn't deserve that.

Possibly. I'm not sure how many decisons went against Fiji anyway. They deserved all their cards for stupidity/repeat infringements. And despite how much I disagree, it appears as if the current laws suggest LRZ try was legitimate as well. There should be control imo/clear downward pressure, but it appears as if those definitions no longer apply and you basically just need a slight touch, which is silly. But this is a question on the laws, not on the referring, or have I missed another still that shows a slight knock on first?

 

[MikeTheNative]

Red card was 100% the correct decision, the yellows for repeated infringements are probably fair. The LRZ try is 50/50 for me but as soon as it's given on field try, then the officiating team have backed themselves into a corner having to give it. I felt they thought they had made a mistake giving on field try and kept watching it back to hope to see separation but with the way the rules are written they didn't have enough evidence to over turn that.
Wales still look really rusty and I just don't understand why, when Ireland played their first game against Japan they looked very well organised, I don't understand why Wales look like this on their 3rd game? They looked like my local club in pre season at times lol.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I think some people have a very strange definition of luck.

We got "lucky" in one game last 6N, England. No doubt we had 1 or 2 lucky decisions that went our way in that one but then we were a bit unlucky in the France game depriving us of a grand slam so it kind of evened itself out as it tends to during the course of a championship. Also, I think a majority of England fans, if they were being honest, accepted that they didn't deserve to win that game so, again, in one game where we were lucky we ultimately were the better team on the day.

What it seems like, is that some people think if another player gets sent off then that is lucky for the team (I.e Wales) but I've never understood this. If POM or Fagerson hadn't of been sent off then we would have been unlucky as they were pretty solid red card decisions. Your not lucky for the opposition being stupid and the ref penalising said player but maybe people see luck as different.

I genuinely don't think I've seen anyone on here give Wales any credit whatsoever. It's normally down to the other team not turning up or the ref giving Wales every decision or some **** like that. Funny that that doesn't go both ways though.

It depends on what scale you're viewing it. In the moment, yes it'd be unlucky had either player only got a yellow. From a long term view Wales have had 3 red cards against them in 10ish matches, that's a lot more than your average side and Wales aren't doing anything to force them, the result being that they won three games that they likely wouldn't have if not for the cards (not all three for sure). It's more like claiming that you were lucky the opposition kicker missed 5 kicks in a one score game than claiming you were unlucky the opposition only got a yellow and not red.

I'm fairly sure I congratulated Wales in the 6n, it was along the lines of they got the job done and beat what was in front of them. What was in front of them was a weaker offering than what normally wins a 6n but that's no one's problem but the losers'. I definitely defended the ref in the aftermath of the England game against the more serious and reactionary accusations of bias along with others.

I think it's unfortunate that Wales won in such unusual fashion so soon after Gatland left because I genuinely think he's why most 6n fans (Some English definitely excluded) disliked the team.

Wales threads are generally the worst on this forum and it's definitely not unilaterally because of Welsh fans because they get a lot of stick buuuuuut equally they can't claim to be blameless either. If you look at @TRF_Olyy 's last post in the Ireland NZ thread (admittedly less common in Ireland threads but not rare either) and the relative non-reaction, I don't think the equivalent response would happen in a Welsh thread. It'd be closer to the last couple pages of this one for a harmless and non provocative message.

 

[ncurd]

I think it's unfortunate that Wales won in such unusual fashion so soon after Gatland left because I genuinely think he's why most 6n fans (Some English definitely excluded) disliked the team.

I think you can expand it a bit whilst red cards were legitimate it doesn't help the teams they happened against. Through no fault of their own Wales won the the triple crown when the opposing teams weren't given a chance to compete properly. Scotland and Ireland had a player to blame, England had the ref. But it really doesn't help when a section of Welsh fans refusal to acknowledge they won by default it become infuriating.

Said for a long time Gatland the person was less the problem but the tactics he employed which led to watching **** rugby. Its also why I hate watching England ATM and wish I had French dual citizenship.

 

[ncurd]

Honestly this is how it felt like after most Welsh matches.

https://c.tenor.com/eMuM7legOcYAAAAC/are-you.gif

No we were not.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Said for a long time Gatland the person was less the problem but the tactics he employed which led to watching **** rugby. Its also why I hate watching England ATM and wish I had French dual citizenship.

It was the person for me!

 

[dullonien]

It depends on what scale you're viewing it. In the moment, yes it'd be unlucky had either player only got a yellow. From a long term view Wales have had 3 red cards against them in 10ish matches, that's a lot more than your average side and Wales aren't doing anything to force them, the result being that they won three games that they likely wouldn't have if not for the cards (not all three for sure). It's more like claiming that you were lucky the opposition kicker missed 5 kicks in a one score game than claiming you were unlucky the opposition only got a yellow and not red.

I'm fairly sure I congratulated Wales in the 6n, it was along the lines of they got the job done and beat what was in front of them. What was in front of them was a weaker offering than what normally wins a 6n but that's no one's problem but the losers'. I definitely defended the ref in the aftermath of the England game against the more serious and reactionary accusations of bias along with others.

I think it's unfortunate that Wales won in such unusual fashion so soon after Gatland left because I genuinely think he's why most 6n fans (Some English definitely excluded) disliked the team.

Wales threads are generally the worst on this forum and it's definitely not unilaterally because of Welsh fans because they get a lot of stick buuuuuut equally they can't claim to be blameless either. If you look at @TRF_Olyy 's last post in the Ireland NZ thread (admittedly less common in Ireland threads but not rare either) and the relative non-reaction, I don't think the equivalent response would happen in a Welsh thread. It'd be closer to the last couple pages of this one for a harmless and non provocative message.

I think that's fair, and exactly the way I see it. The issue with Gats has been his involvements with Lions where opinions of bias is understandably brought up due to him also being head coach of Wales. The result of the Aus tour allowed him to get away with some of it back then, but the NZ tour started asking more questions and the SA tour just smashed his reputation (and bias) to smithereens. Unfortunately, that's projected onto the Welsh side/supporters, even 2+ years post Gats. It's both understandable and grating.

Regarding the comparison between the Ireland thread and this, well as I said it's much harder to ignore when it's the only thing being discussed / nothing to balance it out. Who's fault is that, no-ones probably, but if we want to encourage more Welsh poster to balance things a little then these shitshow threads need to stop. And yes I agree that there's been some argumentative / trolling welsh posters over the years who haven't helped, but I think the state of the forum atm does encourage that type of Welsh poster, more than the sensible calm type because of the general negativity.

 

[Welsh Exile]

It depends on what scale you're viewing it. In the moment, yes it'd be unlucky had either player only got a yellow. From a long term view Wales have had 3 red cards against them in 10ish matches, that's a lot more than your average side and Wales aren't doing anything to force them, the result being that they won three games that they likely wouldn't have if not for the cards (not all three for sure). It's more like claiming that you were lucky the opposition kicker missed 5 kicks in a one score game than claiming you were unlucky the opposition only got a yellow and not red.

I'm fairly sure I congratulated Wales in the 6n, it was along the lines of they got the job done and beat what was in front of them. What was in front of them was a weaker offering than what normally wins a 6n but that's no one's problem but the losers'. I definitely defended the ref in the aftermath of the England game against the more serious and reactionary accusations of bias along with others.

I think it's unfortunate that Wales won in such unusual fashion so soon after Gatland left because I genuinely think he's why most 6n fans (Some English definitely excluded) disliked the team.

Wales threads are generally the worst on this forum and it's definitely not unilaterally because of Welsh fans because they get a lot of stick buuuuuut equally they can't claim to be blameless either. If you look at @TRF_Olyy 's last post in the Ireland NZ thread (admittedly less common in Ireland threads but not rare either) and the relative non-reaction, I don't think the equivalent response would happen in a Welsh thread. It'd be closer to the last couple pages of this one for a harmless and non provocative message.

I 100% agree with your first sentence and I guess that's where the debate could start and end. For me it's always about in the moment. Maybe if, in the same game, we had some blatant red card ignored then I could say yeah we were lucky to have one of their players sent off but one of ours got nothing for the same thing but none of that happened. I don't want to sound like a cliched pundit but a lot of international rugby comes down to discipline and at the end of the day if the opposition are reckless and they are rightfully punished for that then that's not lucky that's just the opposition/individual being **** in that moment.

I can't say I completely agree that they've not been forced, though you have a point. Wyn Jones was about to win a turnover IIRC until Fargerson came steaming in from 10 meters or so away to clear him out. I do have a bit of sympathy for him as he didn't have much of an area to hit safely and Wyn Jones was slightly rising before he got hit but this is how it is these days whether you agree with it or not. POM one was totally unforced to be fair, completely unnecessary. But again I would just say that we would of been really, really unlucky if POM got anything other than a red card as it was that blatant in my opinion.

I get the Gatland hate he's clearly a bit of a prick who's not exactly the most expansive free flowing rugby coach there's ever been and there's the whole history with Ireland where Gatland will feel aggrieved with the IRU and there's always been that beef but some of it just seemed so overboard to me. You never saw the same level towards Eddie Jones, for example, I mean didn't he literally call the Irish scum or something in some private dinner? I can't remember Gatland ever getting that personal even the time he said the Welsh players hated the Irish the most because they play against each other all the time so there's that added spice or whatever, that's tame compared to Eddie Jones. I guess I'm engaging in whataboutery here though and as I say I get it I just thought it was always a bit overboard but I could be missing a lot of info and obviously I'm not exactly without any biases.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I 100% agree with your first sentence and I guess that's where the debate could start and end. For me it's always about in the moment. Maybe if, in the same game, we had some blatant red card ignored then I could say yeah we were lucky to have one of their players sent off but one of ours got nothing for the same thing but none of that happened. I don't want to sound like a cliched pundit but a lot of international rugby comes down to discipline and at the end of the day if the opposition are reckless and they are rightfully punished for that then that's not lucky that's just the opposition/individual being **** in that moment.

The game where Tuilagi got a red card for a high tackle on North as he was diving for the line is the same game where Tuilagi was clotheslined by a Welsh player (Parkes I think?) Who jumped into the tackle and caught him full on in the head, so yeah it did happen...