Wales vs England - 16/03/2013

[Draggs]

No tears, only dreams.

 

[Ospreylian]

Really??

Yes. Really. Bring it Australia! Nah tbf we'd probably still get outplayed in every area lol.

This whole thing about Walsh is a bit ridiculous tbh. With a scoreline so big as 30-3 is there really any point in investigating the decisions now? Such a scoreline suggests that even if the ref did get some decisions wrong, the match still would have gone the same way. Also, I noticed quite a few occasions during the game that should have been penalties to Wales too, but Walsh ignored them. So I really don't think he was biased.

I really don't rate Marler as a scrummager. The scrum seemed to collapse on his side quite a lot. I really don't think he was getting the binding right, or binding at all on some occasions. I just think the English forwards had a bad day in the scrum, which does happen - it's happened to the likes of Adam Jones and Gethin Jenkins on a few occasions so I don't see why the English coaches think that Cole and Marler are going to have brilliant storming games every weekend. All players have blips, and I genuinely think that was the case for Cole, Youngs and Marler on Saturday.

 

[Peat]

Yes. Really. Bring it Australia! Nah tbf we'd probably still get outplayed in every area lol.

This whole thing about Walsh is a bit ridiculous tbh. With a scoreline so big as 30-3 is there really any point in investigating the decisions now? Such a scoreline suggests that even if the ref did get some decisions wrong, the match still would have gone the same way. Also, I noticed quite a few occasions during the game that should have been penalties to Wales too, but Walsh ignored them. So I really don't think he was biased.

For us? No. For the coaches? Absolutely and I can guarantee you that any professional coach would be asking questions of the assessor in the same situation. If you are coaching something and the ref deems it illegal, or you are not coaching something to avoid illegality but finding others doing it, you need to find out with the utmost speed whether that is a one-off or whether you need to teach something different. Also, if you do not scrutinise refereeing decisions, there is no hope of improving refereeing standards, which I think we'd agree are poor. There is every reason for the RFU and IRB to go over this match.

And for the last time, nobody is saying it would have changed the result. That is irrelevant and besides the point, so please stop repeating it. No one is seeking a reason to go "Bleh, you only won because of the ref". They are seeking to find out why the decisions happened, whether they were right and what they need to change.

 

[Thingimubob]

Scrums Won

Wales 5 - 6 Ireland --- England 7 - 4 Ireland
Wales 4 - 7 France --- England 5 - 5 France
Wales 12 - 6 Italy --- England 8 - 7 Italy
Wales 4 - 3 Scotland - England 5 - 5 Scotland
--------------------------------------------
Wales 8 - 1 England

Before the England vs Wales game - Wales had won 25/47 scrums England had won 25/46 scrums.

Both teams were relatively successful in the scrum against all the other 6 nations opponents.

Ignoring the scrum for a second Wales were still dominant in every other area of play so still deserved to win - Just pointing out that England's sudden demise in the scrum, when it had been just as successful/more successful against the other 6 nations opponents as Wales's scrum was - might indicate Wales were collapsing it.

Got the statistics from here - http://www.rbs6nations.com/en/home.php

I'm guessing free kicks (and penalties from free kicks) don't count in this? Wales definitely won more scrums than 4 against Scotland! France - Wales game had shoddy scrums because of a godawful pitch, still not convinced on half of those penalties (though Adam came out and said he had a bad game)!
The stats vs Italy are interesting though, Wales took their scrum apart in that game, Italy's came storming back against England after Castro went off, and England only just edged in stats.
Anyway, only way to prove the better scrum is in direct competition imo, and I believe Wales just simply overpowered the England.

 

[Ospreylian]

For us? No. For the coaches? Absolutely and I can guarantee you that any professional coach would be asking questions of the assessor in the same situation. If you are coaching something and the ref deems it illegal, or you are not coaching something to avoid illegality but finding others doing it, you need to find out with the utmost speed whether that is a one-off or whether you need to teach something different. Also, if you do not scrutinise refereeing decisions, there is no hope of improving refereeing standards, which I think we'd agree are poor. There is every reason for the RFU and IRB to go over this match.

And for the last time, nobody is saying it would have changed the result. That is irrelevant and besides the point, so please stop repeating it. No one is seeking a reason to go "Bleh, you only won because of the ref". They are seeking to find out why the decisions happened, whether they were right and what they need to change.

No I completely agree Peat. I'm not saying England fans are blaming the ref for the defeat. And I agree that improvements to the refereeing standards is a good thing, of course. I just think that if decisions against England are called into question, then perhaps the decisions that went against Wales should also be called into question. Steve Walsh maybe needs to be assessed from a neutral perspective for his decisions on both teams' play, especially considering he has a record of being called into question as a ref.

But you make a good point that refereeing standards in the 6 Nations are poor. Just take a look at the mess that is Clancy.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I understand what you mean but it's not really up to the RFU to complain on behalf of the WRU, even though any investigation will obviously look into Walsh's performance holistically.

 

[Ospreylian]

I understand what you mean but it's not really up to the RFU to complain on behalf of the WRU, even though any investigation will obviously look into Walsh's performance holistically.

Yeah I suppose. Perhaps if Walsh's refereeing is put under more scrutiny by the IRB it will generate a further investigation into his general abilities as a ref in other matches over the past year or so.

 

[RedruthRFC]

The reality is that we DO have some grounds for whinging, for example a penalty against J Roberts for not rolling away when he was being held by an English forward (not sure which player) would be a major gripe with me, but i'm pretty sure Farrell missed the kick or went to touch and then lost the throw anyway. But yes basically, with a performance like that it is much easier to let these things go. I'd like to think in the reverse I would be one of the many English fans accepting that the ref had very little to do with their defeat and would tip my cap to the Welsh and leave it be.

I'm sure you're right about Wales' complaints, which leads me to question the involvement of either competing team in the process of reviewing the referee's performance. There's a disincentive for either team to say anything lest they be accused of being poor losers / ungracious winners. If any team do get involved in the process, they will no doubt be doing so with their own agenda.

I would have thought a review would be better carried out independently before being passed to both teams (for possible feedback), hence avoiding too much media scrutiny of refereeing performances. Are the IRB's refs department so under resourced that they need teams to carry out their analysis for them?

I don't follow the comments in this thread about moving on and forgetting about the refereeing performance. This is professional rugby, I have no doubt that both teams will be doing their regular post match analysis, why should top level professional referees be any different? My only doubt is what constitutes the best process for them to follow.

 

[smb64]

I'm guessing free kicks (and penalties from free kicks) don't count in this? Wales definitely won more scrums than 4 against Scotland! France - Wales game had shoddy scrums because of a godawful pitch, still not convinced on half of those penalties (though Adam came out and said he had a bad game)!
The stats vs Italy are interesting though, Wales took their scrum apart in that game, Italy's came storming back against England after Castro went off, and England only just edged in stats.
Anyway, only way to prove the better scrum is in direct competition imo, and I believe Wales just simply overpowered the England.

Good point I didn't think about that, pretty sure free kicks are not included, so kind of makes those stats useless. Just to clarify I have no doubt that the Wales scrum is superior to England's. I was just a bit surprised as to how it completely fell apart when it had been fairly decent up till then.

 

[dullonien]

Scrums Won

Wales 5 - 6 Ireland --- England 7 - 4 Ireland
Wales 4 - 7 France --- England 5 - 5 France
Wales 12 - 6 Italy --- England 8 - 7 Italy
Wales 4 - 3 Scotland - England 5 - 5 Scotland
--------------------------------------------
Wales 8 - 1 England

Before the England vs Wales game - Wales had won 25/47 scrums England had won 25/46 scrums.

Both teams were relatively successful in the scrum against all the other 6 nations opponents.

Ignoring the scrum for a second Wales were still dominant in every other area of play so still deserved to win - Just pointing out that England's sudden demise in the scrum, when it had been just as successful/more successful against the other 6 nations opponents as Wales's scrum was - might indicate Wales were collapsing it.

Got the statistics from here - http://www.rbs6nations.com/en/home.php

Interesting stats, but we all know that Adam Jones started the championship slowly. Tbh, none of the Welsh front row were fully fit for the beginning of the 6 nations. Adam Jones had only been back from injury for a few weeks, and due to his lack of natural athleticism takes him a good few games to return to his best. The Ireland game was actually Hibbard's first game back from a minor injury, and we all know that Jenkins has been lacking gametime, and himself had picked up an injury prior to the tournament starting.

They grew into the championship, both in terms of scrummaging and in their general play. The pitch in France was also shocking. Same for both sides, yes, but Adam really seemed to struggle out there, which he was criticised for. In the England game, the scrums that did stay up, Wales were in ascendancy. That tells its own story imo.

 

[Draggs]

Don't forget that packing down behind our front row was Ian Evans who hadn't played since mid-November, and Andrew Coombs, a flanker making his debut.

 

[dullonien]

Don't forget that packing down behind our front row was Ian Evans who hadn't played since mid-November, and Andrew Coombs, a flanker making his debut.

I think Alun-Wyn added a lot to the scrum when he came back. He's a powerful guy, certainly has more grunt than Coombs.

I know the stats say that England were doing ok in the scrums, but imo Cole wasn't up to his usual standards on the tighthead. I normally rate his scrummaging very highly, but he really struggled in patches this campaign. The reasons for that could include a lack of scrummaging second row behind him as some England supporters have highlighted.

Edit. Just to make it clear, I have no problem that we're having this conversation. I think referee's performances need to be questioned just as much as the players. I've question referee's decisions in the past without trying to be a sore loser (I know it often comes across that way), so I understand that those questioning Walsh's here aren't doing it in a sore loser kind of way.

I do however feel bad for referee's sometimes, as others have pointed out, they aren't trying to cheat, but they have so many area's to keep check of that they tend to miss things. I actually put more blame in the 'assistant referee's' (most are really still just linesmen, who don't contribute anything), as they really should be seeing some of the off the ball stuff that the ref isn't in a position to see. The incident with Ken Owens in this game, the ref was the other side of the ruck, but what was the neearside assistant ref doing? There wasn't anyone blocking his view. I've noticed that when Nigel Owens is on one of the sidelines, he contributes quite a lot to be fair to him (which is sometimes ignored ), as do a couple of others, but most are terrible.

Sorry for the long edit. Didn't plan to write any more than an extra line.

 

[Peat]

I think Alun-Wyn added a lot to the scrum when he came back. He's a powerful guy, certainly has more grunt than Coombs.

I know the stats say that England were doing ok in the scrums, but imo Cole wasn't up to his usual standards on the tighthead. I normally rate his scrummaging very highly, but he really struggled in patches this campaign. The reasons for that could include a lack of scrummaging second row behind him as some England supporters have highlighted.

Yeah, we were shaky. I personally felt before the game that the scrum could be a major achilles heel.

That said, we have two absolute babies at loosehead, and as you say no powerhouse tighthead lock. I'm not certain that short a hooker is ideal either. It's why AWJ has skipped ahead of Launchbury in my personal Lions team, he's like the older bulked-up version.

 

[RedruthRFC]

The incident with Ken Owens in this game, the ref was the other side of the ruck, but what was the neearside assistant ref doing? There wasn't anyone blocking his view. I've noticed that when Nigel Owens is on one of the sidelines, he contributes quite a lot to be fair to him (which is sometimes ignored ), as do a couple of others, but most are terrible.

Hawing read Rowntree's comments last night, but seen relatively little comment on the incident, I re watched this frame by frame on YouTube this afternoon. I'm not sure it's true that the AR would have had a full view, I thought that Tipuric was going to prevent me from seeing anything on the nearside camera, although he did get out of the way in time for a clear frame or two of Owens with his arm on the floor.

 

[dullonien]

Hawing read Rowntree's comments last night, but seen relatively little comment on the incident, I re watched this frame by frame on YouTube this afternoon. I'm not sure it's true that the AR would have had a full view, I thought that Tipuric was going to prevent me from seeing anything on the nearside camera, although he did get out of the way in time for a clear frame or two of Owens with his arm on the floor.

Maybe, but surely it's not hard for the AR to move to one side to get a view of the ruck?

Anyway, the point is that the main referee is always given the blame, but the AR's aren't doing enough to help them out. I'm not sure why, they just often are unwilling to give input in-case it's incorrect. It's not very often that an AR is willing to say yes or no to a try, even when sometimes they are feet away from the scoring incident. They often have better views than any tv camera. I think some need to grow some balls and give the ref some input, not just stand there like lemons and only really giving input on where the ball crossed the line for a lineout.

I know they probably have more input than I'm giving them credit for, checking for offsides, or forward passes, but sometimes I'm just unsure at what they are looking at when incidents take place right in front of them. How did none of the three referees notice Michalak's forearm smash, and numerous uppercuts for example? I can excise the main ref, as his concentration is pretty much 99% following the ball, but the AR's should be scanning the rest of the field looking for foul play off the ball, checking for offsides etc.

 

[Big Ewis]

what's this about the Welsh scrum not being legit ?! France and Wales have the best scrums in the world atm, end of discussion !
they were fkn BRUTAL against England (Wales).

 

[big ginger 8]

what's this about the Welsh scrum not being legit ?! France and Wales have the best scrums in the world atm, end of discussion !
they were fkn BRUTAL against England (Wales).

No scrum in world rugby is completly legal.

 

[Rhondda Rudie]

Though both Joubert and Clancy were far worse than Walsh during the 6N.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Marler and Cole been backed by Adam Jones

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_8577330,00.html

 

[j'nuh]

^ Domingo has been very, very underrated this tournament.