Wales summer Tour of Australia (and 1 off match against SA)

[dirty harry]

By not playing a brand of rugby that plays to our weaknesses, ie like Jospeh at Japan

Chiefs looked like dogshit as well when he was coaching them. Not only did they start winning every game they played as soon as they moved him upstairs but they totally changed the way they were playing under Gatland.

We've not got loads of world class players anymore admittedly but a coaches main job is to get the most out of the resources he has available to him. Do you honestly, hand on heart, think he's doing that now? We know he wasn't doing that at the chiefs. That's proven beyond any shadow of a doubt. And what exactly has he done since then, got us a wooden spoon with no signs of light at the end of the tunnel. Nah, it's not all on the players.

In fact I'd take that Clayton what his name now if it was down to me. Gatland is rugbys Mourinho, he's yesterday's man still stuck in decades gone by and the game has moved on. I also don't think the players are all brought in either, so I not only question his tactics and game management but his man management to.

I followed that Cheifs season closely, it was awfull but they really only had McKenzie as a fully fledged international in that team. It was a bad Cheifs team, and Gatland was instrumental in turning that around. Cheifs higher ups were pretty vocal in that.

I mean I could agree hes stuck in the past, I could agree he is passed it, but ultimately the squad is so bad it wouldnt make a difference...

Take the Italy 6N game, man for man we were inferior to Italy, Tomos William's aside.

 

[dirty harry]

I'd also add that Gatland doesn't seem like the same Gatland. Way more negative and depressed than usual and any behind scenes stuff he just seems soooooo uninspiring. I mean, I know we can't have a breakdancing coach but is to much to ask to have a bit of charisma?

Do you feel full of charisma and energy regarding Welsh rugby? I know I dont. I actually feel his pain

 

[Welsh Exile]

I followed that Cheifs season closely, it was awfull but they really only had McKenzie as a fully fledged international in that team. It was a bad Cheifs team, and Gatland was instrumental in turning that around. Cheifs higher ups were pretty vocal in that.

I mean I could agree hes stuck in the past, I could agree he is passed it, but ultimately the squad is so bad it wouldnt make a difference...

Take the Italy 6N game, man for man we were inferior to Italy, Tomos William's aside.

They had Cane as well. And it still doesn't change the fact that as soon as they had enough with him a that Clayton guy came in who totally changed the way they were playing under Gatland and started winning all their games. Coincidence? Nope. You could see the players were not enjoying being coached by him and that's why when Clayton came in with the same players that Gatland had, he completely turned it around.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Do you feel full of charisma and energy regarding Welsh rugby? I know I dont. I actually feel his pain

I ******* would if I was being paid £500k pa

 

[dirty harry]

I ******* would if I was being paid £500k pa

Well that goes to show Gats priorities... I'd enjoy 500k but I'd still be depressed selecting that squad

 

[Welsh Exile]

Well that goes to show Gats priorities... I'd enjoy 500k but I'd still be depressed selecting that squad

It's literally his job to be positive even if he's faking it. He can't be bothered to that really.

I actually think we've got some very good players in wales. A lot of raw players and definitely lacking quality in certain areas but some very good players.

 

[dullonien]

Trying to be a bit more positive, hopefully we see:

Thomas
Lake
Assiratti
Jenkins
Tshiunza
Morgan
Reffell
Wainwright

Bevan (might as well)
Thomas
Hathaway
Tompkins
Grady
Giles
Winnett

Subs: Lloyd, Domachowski, Lewis, Carter, Martin, Davies, Costelow, Giles

I'd be close to this, but I'd stary Dyer on one wing with Giles on the other. Can't decide if I'd prefer Watkin or Tompkins at 12, or maybe try Grady at 12 who looked good there towards the end of the Italy game.

I'd probably avoid starting Giles and including him on the bench at the same time

 

[Welsh Exile]

I'd be close to this, but I'd stary Dyer on one wing with Giles on the other. Can't decide if I'd prefer Watkin or Tompkins at 12, or maybe try Grady at 12 who looked good there towards the end of the Italy game.

I'd probably avoid starting Giles and including him on the bench at the same time

lol, I left Dyer out. What am I thinking??? And Giles being cloned. This is what Gatland has done to me.

 

[dullonien]

Liam Williams will probably start for his experience. Issue is that I want to see Winnett continue at fullback, but I'm not sure Liam has the pace anymore to play on the wing. Maybe Liam on the bench?

 

[Welsh Exile]

Liam Williams will probably start for his experience. Issue is that I want to see Winnett continue at fullback, but I'm not sure Liam has the pace anymore to play on the wing. Maybe Liam on the bench?

We're building depth mate. Didn't you listen to Gats.

Ok that's not fair as he was taking about 10 not 15 but still, couldn't resist.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Liam hasn't had international winger pace for many years. I'm not even totally sure he ever did but he made up for it by being a top class finisher

 

[Welsh Exile]

Just read the transcript from his presser. The best lie was him talking about fly half saying "it's not like were throwing any old player in who's never played that position"

Ha ha ha ha ha. Then he talked about size again, surprise surprise, and how when a big dude is running at you you need some physicality there. Fair enough so why select Costelow and he is aware that there's like 2 inches and a couple of pounds of difference in weight between Thomas and Lloyd but it's fine, Beetham played fly half once when he was 7 so it's all good. He's bigger so we'll be fine now. He's wasting so much time and development of some players.

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

Picking a fly half (that doesnt usually play at fly half) just for their size is a new low from Gatland.

 

[dirty harry]

It's literally his job to be positive even if he's faking it. He can't be bothered to that really.

I actually think we've got some very good players in wales. A lot of raw players and definitely lacking quality in certain areas but some very good players.

Who are these players? We EASILY have the worst squad in the 6N, and maybe theres an argument for the worst squad in the top 13-15 of world rugby.

As I said, Italy man for man were far superior than us in March, and this squad is far weaker than that one.

 

[dirty harry]

Picking a fly half (that doesnt usually play at fly half) just for their size is a new low from Gatland.

He picked 2 fly halfs that dont play fly half... he mentioned Thomas (who should be a fly half) and Beetham who has barely played pro rugby and played 10 at age grade.

But who are his options Evan's, Sheedy, Costelow, Lloyd, Cai Evan's, Edward's, Walsh, Reed... average height of 5'6 and none can defend at club level. Edward's I'll give a pass too, but none of the others can compete, Costelow has proved over and over a game loser.

 

[dirty harry]

Just read the transcript from his presser. The best lie was him talking about fly half saying "it's not like were throwing any old player in who's never played that position"

Ha ha ha ha ha. Then he talked about size again, surprise surprise, and how when a big dude is running at you you need some physicality there. Fair enough so why select Costelow and he is aware that there's like 2 inches and a couple of pounds of difference in weight between Thomas and Lloyd but it's fine, Beetham played fly half once when he was 7 so it's all good. He's bigger so we'll be fine now. He's wasting so much time and development of some players.

I mean Thomas has regularly deputies at 10 over the last 3/4 seasons, and Beetham played 10 and 15 at age grade, so it's no fair to say say neither has played. And in their credit they are both bigger and better defenders than lloyd and Costelow.

You dont seem to empathise with Gatlands position, an international coach is having to trawl academies for players with any spark of ability then try to develop them on the international stage is the craziest thing I've ever seen! But look at the standard of coaching in Wales, is it a surprise?

 

[dullonien]

Costellow's defense is the least of my worries! He misses the odd tackle, but is a brave defender to often leads the defensive line and chops guys down. It's the rest of his game that's an issue!

We need to be picking players a 10 for how they control the game, and organise the backline/attack. Defense is very much an added bonus on top. The likes of George Ford, Bauden Barrett, Jalibert aren't big players, or dominant tacklers, but the defensive organisation can cover them sufficiently to allow them to do what they do best on the other side of the ball.

As for Italy having a better squad than us. I'd agree, because they're more settled and more experienced. But that's because they have persevered with certain players who have come good over many seasons. Take Garbisi at 10 - always had potential, but was full of errors for a while at the beginning. In comparison, we had an opportunity to develop someone like Jarrod Evans, who as a youngster was steering Cardifg to European glory (only challenge cup, but still) with some great attacking displays, keeping both Patchell and Anscombe out of the starting 10 position. A few holes in his game, and we drop/ignore him to a point that he got fed up and left Welsh rugby!

This goes pack to Pivac as well, so it's not all on Gatland. But we can't expect to compete quite yet with so many rookies in so many positions. I have hope that there's a lot of potential qiality in this squad, but that's all it is atm, potential. It'll be another couple of years of hurt I think before we can expect any results. The hope is that come the next world cup we can be competative again when these rookies have 25-30 caps each.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Who are these players? We EASILY have the worst squad in the 6N, and maybe theres an argument for the worst squad in the top 13-15 of world rugby.

As I said, Italy man for man were far superior than us in March, and this squad is far weaker than that one.

You still haven't explained to me how Clayton McMillan literally won all his games when he took over from Gatland at the chiefs. You know, that same side that Gatland lost every single one of his games and looking like a semi pro NZ side (a side that had 2 genuine world class players at the time in Cane and Mackenzie) Sound familiar? As I say, coaches are meant to get the best out of individuals and get a unit performing greater than the sum of their parts. He massively failed to do that at chiefs (look at their trajectory now) and he's failing to do that with Wales.

My position is that pretty much any coach would get these players playing to a higher standard but, more importantly, would create a unit that was greater than the sum of its parts. Literally the number one job of any manager in any sport. We're not going anywhere with him at the helm. We're just getting talk about small fly halves, well news flash, Beetham isn't big either.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I mean Thomas has regularly deputies at 10 over the last 3/4 seasons, and Beetham played 10 and 15 at age grade, so it's no fair to say say neither has played. And in their credit they are both bigger and better defenders than lloyd and Costelow.

You dont seem to empathise with Gatlands position, an international coach is having to trawl academies for players with any spark of ability then try to develop them on the international stage is the craziest thing I've ever seen! But look at the standard of coaching in Wales, is it a surprise?

How many times exactly has Thomas played 10 in the last couple of years? A handful? How many times this season? Zero would be my guess. I have zero interest in whether a player played a position when he was 9 years old especially when we have actual fly halves like Jarrod Evans who've played there their entire career.

 

[Welsh Exile]

One thing I haven't considered is maybe Gatland is trying to get sacked. He made public that he offered his resignation (hearts not in it) after the 6N and he's going into Pivac territory now when asked about what his goals are for this tour, how about win both games down under, Warren, but no, it's we want to try and play well and not get spanked. Inspiring.

Makes me wonder if there is a clause in his contract that stipulates a pay out if he gets sacked. One can dream.