(Very) early thoughts on the 2017 Lions

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

My Lions Starting Team :-

1. Mako Vunipola
2. Jamie George
3. Tadhg Furlong
4. Maro Itoje
5. Ian Henderson
6. CJ Stander
7. Justin Tipuric
8. Billy Vunipola

9. Connor Murray
10. Johnny Sexton
11. Liam Williams
12. Owen Farrell
13. Robbie Henshaw
14. Jack Nowell
15. Stewart Hogg

16. Rory Best
17. JP Nel
18. Jack McGrath
19. Johnny Gray
20. James Haskell
21. Rhys Webb
22. Finn Russell
23. Anthony Watson

Your bench appears to be everyone who's not touring?

 

[munstermuffin]

That's not the case whatsoever, POM improved the lineout and that was it, we stole one and England bizarrely decided not to challenge ours, Henderson was also calling them which was a first. Heaslip would have been better around the park and freed up CJ and SOB to have a bit more fun. There's also a hell of a lot of weight being put on Scotland's performance against England.

I think you're mixing up "bite" and an engine in the second row muff, with SOB, Furlong and McGrath Ireland didn't lack "bite" but Henderson and Toner aren't going to do the work Ryan does, AWJ, Kruis and Launchbury do though!

Are all these "JJ is a class above" statements based on what he has done in previous years? If you take the Scotland game out of the equation where everything was given to England's attack he was really just on Jones' and Ringrose's level, better defence but worse attack than Jones and Ringrose's game v Scotland aside there's not much difference in their defensive game whatsoever and while Jones is a better runner given space, Ringrose is more likely to create something under pressure. If the rumoured centres do travel he's got it wrong but for me Ringrose over JJ isn't madness whatsoever especially considering Ringrose was comfortably better than JJ and then Daly in the last two significant rounds prior to selection, I'd have them both over Te'o, who is not good enough to start at test level imo, and JD2. Schmidt or Cotter wouldn't go near Te'o or JD2 if they were coaching.

- - - Updated - - -



You think Donnacha Ryan is better than former IRB player of the year Brodie Retallick?... That's a bit of a stretch now!

Not mixing up anything. On current form thise lads ain't going as good. Like you won't agree Heaslip omission bettered Ireland. I 100% think it did. Put CJ in his better position and he offered more there and got POM in at 6 where he inproved us. You won't agree and fair enough. But against Scotlabd we didn't have enough guys man up. And I mean pure dog not engine or bite AWJ does have it and Kruis at times. Launchbury doesn't have that asset he has many talents though. Also it doesn't have to be a lock. Quinlan, Dallaglio, Cullen and many more had it. A backrow of Warburton Stander and Vunipola none of them have it. But look it only an opinion.

As we discovered Toner offers workrate and setpieces but if setpiece goes as shown in 6Nations he was neutralised. Henderson still not developed as lock. Not helped by Ulster wanting him at 6.

 

[TobesHodges]

Your bench appears to be everyone who's not touring?

Feelsbadman - It was just what i thought the team should be.. I know the final team will look very different

 

[MikeTheNative]

I wouldn't have Russel in my 23. I would rather a centre then a back 3 player on the bench so that if Sexton get's injured Farrell moves to 10.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Feelsbadman - It was just what i thought the team should be.. I know the final team will look very different

For sure, It's not that I disagree with you just wanted to let you know you may be disappointed come tomorrow

 

[MikeTheNative]

I don't think you can start Stander at 6 with Vunipola at 8. I reckon it will be either Stander 6 and Faletau 8 or Vunipola 8 with Warburton/O'Mahony at 6.

 

[TobesHodges]

Does Impress that within a Season and Half of Pro Senior rugby Itoje is a nailed on Starting Lion.. Fair play to the lad.

 

[MarkyH]

So much fandom here....

How are we excluding players based on one game, or hyping them up for one game - for example the 'If it wasn't for Scotland Joseph had an average tournament'

BUT we are praising players based on one game too 'POM should be in for what he did against England'

Then we have the 'England were average, as shown in the Ireland game, Ireland miles better' AND 'England got Scotland on a poor day'

But we exclude that maybe England had a poor day against Ireland, but still won the tournament a week early.

FWIW I think Ireland are a little better than England, then a drop off to Wales & Scotland.

JJ should be in, as should Ringrose.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

So with one day to go to the announcement and putting together comments here, speculation it looks like likely 38 will look something like this give or take:

Props:

Marler, McGrath, Vunipola. (Healy if he takes 7)
Cole, Furlong, Sinckler

Hookers:

Best, George, Owens

Locks:

AWJ, Itoje, Kruis, Ryan, Henderson

Backrow:

Warburton (captain) SOB, POM, Stander, Tipuric, Vunipola, Faletau

Scrum halves:

Murray, Youngs, Webb

Fly halves:

Sexton, Farrell

Centres:

Roberts, Te'o, Henshaw, Davies

Wings/Full backs:

North, Daly, Maitland, Watson, Williams, Hogg, Halfpenny.

 

[munstermuffin]

So much fandom here....

How are we excluding players based on one game, or hyping them up for one game - for example the 'If it wasn't for Scotland Joseph had an average tournament'

BUT we are praising players based on one game too 'POM should be in for what he did against England'

Then we have the 'England were average, as shown in the Ireland game, Ireland miles better' AND 'England got Scotland on a poor day'

But we exclude that maybe England had a poor day against Ireland, but still won the tournament a week early.

FWIW I think Ireland are a little better than England, then a drop off to Wales & Scotland.

JJ should be in, as should Ringrose.

To be fair POM is the best defensive lineout backrow in world based on Stats. Has been doing it consistently. On others I can't comment much.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

So much fandom here....

How are we excluding players based on one game, or hyping them up for one game - for example the 'If it wasn't for Scotland Joseph had an average tournament'

That's not what I said though, I also criticised people dumping Scots out of the Lions based on the England performance in the same post. Its totally worth looking at the opposition when taking a performance into account, just ask Craig Gilroy! When comparing JJ to the other two though the only game that would suggest he's the better player is the Scotland game though, it wasn't an accurate representation of test match rugby for him though.

As for your ranking teams I think you've taken your diplomacy too far, England are the best of the lot, the best you could argue is that Ireland's peak performance is better but thats worthless when you can lose to the Scots when you go off the boil.

 

[General Melchett]

That's not what I said though, I also criticised people dumping Scots out of the Lions based on the England performance in the same post. Its totally worth looking at the opposition when taking a performance into account, just ask Craig Gilroy! When comparing JJ to the other two though the only game that would suggest he's the better player is the Scotland game though, it wasn't an accurate representation of test match rugby for him though.

As for your ranking teams I think you've taken your diplomacy too far, England are the best of the lot, the best you could argue is that Ireland's peak performance is better but thats worthless when you can lose to the Scots when you go off the boil.

I agree with you and think that the lack of Scots is a direct correlation to the lack of representation on the coaching team and the fact that the dynamic attacking and expansive brand of rugby coached into the Scots goes against Warrenball and the tactics likely to be employed against the AB's. The horror show at Twickenham gives the coaches the perfect excuse to overlook the likes of Dunbar, J Gray, Russell, Watson who otherwise had decent tournaments. It's funny how things can change in a heartbeat. JJ was having a quiet 6N until the Scotland game and Watson was the 7 of the tournament until Twickenham.

 

[MarkyH]

That's not what I said though, I also criticised people dumping Scots out of the Lions based on the England performance in the same post. Its totally worth looking at the opposition when taking a performance into account, just ask Craig Gilroy! When comparing JJ to the other two though the only game that would suggest he's the better player is the Scotland game though, it wasn't an accurate representation of test match rugby for him though.

As for your ranking teams I think you've taken your diplomacy too far, England are the best of the lot, the best you could argue is that Ireland's peak performance is better but thats worthless when you can lose to the Scots when you go off the boil.

I thought I played the diplomacy card well

All good points raised tho, and I wasn't critising any individual here, more a general mentality of all rugby fans to change their point of view but maintain the exact way of thinking depending on who they want to defend/praise....

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Rugbyimakeupinsideline Twitter account saying they have been told Hartley will be lions captain.

God the reactions if that happens.

 

[ncurd]

I'm struggling to think of single person apart from the most casual of England Rugby fans that would support that decision.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

Third choice fly half could well find himself playing in the tests if Sexton gets injured and Farrell plays at 12. With HIA now in play, I think we will see more replacements called up than in any other Lions tour. It's a brutal schedule and it looks like the centres will be asked to run through brick walls.

My point is more: if you are down to third choice fly half you are screwed anyway. If you choose not to take JJ you are just screwing yourself.

 

[ncurd]

Ford or Russell are hardly the big drop as third choice from Sexton where as Biggar is. Many consider Ford as Farrell equal and many consider Russell better than Ford.

The point is most suspect Sexton will get croaked at some point on tour, at which point I'd rather slip in Ford or Russell and keep Farrell at 12. So are we talking third or second choice?

Equally I don't think we are bummed if we do go to third choice if that person is a quality player which Biggar is not.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I'm on record as saying they have no chance anyway but without Sexton they go from having a 2% chance of picking up one test win to a snowball's chance in hell in the middle of a heat wave while its covered in salt. He's the only 10 who can do it without a pack that has at least a slight upper hand given our backs will have parity with theirs at best.

Hartley going as captain would be a pisstake he'd be captaining a player he has headbutted, a player he struck with a swinging arm to the head and potentially players he's gouged or punched... He does captain half of these players regularly with England but having a squad where up to 10% of the players have been assaulted by the captain, as well as two potential speakers in Wayne Barnes and Stephen Ferris, is mad!

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I'm on record as saying they have no chance anyway but without Sexton they go from having a 2% chance of picking up one test win to a snowball's chance in hell in the middle of a heat wave while its covered in salt. He's the only 10 who can do it without a pack that has at least a slight upper hand given our backs will have parity with theirs at best.

Hartley going as captain would be a pisstake he'd be captaining a player he has headbutted, a player he struck with a swinging arm to the head and potentially players he's gouged or punched... He does captain half of these players regularly with England but having a squad where up to 10% of the players have been assaulted by the captain, as well as two potential speakers in Wayne Barnes and Stephen Ferris, is mad!

I'm taking comfort in the fact that there's so many contradictory rumours going round and not all can be true, so maybe none are!

The Alpha Bro I actually disagree about our chances without Sexton. He's by some way the most rounded and best player, but George Ford can attack any team with the right players around him. He's more of a risk than the likes of Farrell but the rewards can be rich. A few coaches have said the lions should try and run the All Blacks around, and Ford can certainly do that.

There's also the argument I would make that we need to think about what sort of test matches we expect. In an arm-wrestle you want a player with Sextons overall command of the game, but are we really going to be getting a low scoring arm-wrestle against the All-blacks in June? We know they'll score tries against us. I think it would be massively stupid to not bring someone of Fords attacking talent.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

I'm on record as saying they have no chance anyway but without Sexton they go from having a 2% chance of picking up one test win to a snowball's chance in hell in the middle of a heat wave while its covered in salt. He's the only 10 who can do it without a pack that has at least a slight upper hand given our backs will have parity with theirs at best.

Hartley going as captain would be a pisstake he'd be captaining a player he has headbutted, a player he struck with a swinging arm to the head and potentially players he's gouged or punched... He does captain half of these players regularly with England but having a squad where up to 10% of the players have been assaulted by the captain, as well as two potential speakers in Wayne Barnes and Stephen Ferris, is mad!

Agreed, without sexton they have no chance. Test matches this tour Farrell is only a 12.

Do players like Hartley on any team he captains? Maybe the selectors are thinking that the players can unite in their hatred of him.