(Very) early thoughts on the 2017 Lions

[Leonormous Boozer]

I would also add that previous Lions tours and the RWC showed that experience counts. Barring injury there are certain players that are near certainty to be picked whoever the Lions coach is because as McGeechan calls them they are proven "test match animals". I would put the following in this category i.e. as long as they are fit in time they will be picked:

Hartley - maybe controversial, but last Lions tour proved you need a hooker who can throw under pressure and front, middle or back and his line out stats for England have been exceptional. Not to mention being a Kiwi he'll know the conditions well. He will also have something to prove after missing the last Lions squad and RWC through his own indiscipline. Plus there isn't a lot of strength in depth in this position imo.

AWJ
Sam Warburton
Sean O'Brien
Toby Faletau
Johnny Sexton
Jamie Roberts
Lee Halfpenny
George North

The rest of the squad; likely 37 based on 2013 Lions tour will obviously based on form from now on; both club and country, but a deciding factor will also be how well they played in previous Lions tours e.g. Lydiate isn't in great form at present, but if Gatland is Lions' coach I'm 95% certain he is another who will definitely make the final squad.

As Saint4805 says the ***le to this thread does say "early thoughts".

Hopefully they have a bigger squad, not only are these nations getting ****ed through having to give their best players to a pointless tour in what should be a valuable international period they're also getting ****ed by the NZRFU through the schedule. Less injuries is better than having more players missing I suppose.

 

[Lancashire Nick]

I did say it had been fun

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Hopefully they have a bigger squad, not only are these nations getting ****ed through having to give their best players to a pointless tour in what should be a valuable international period they're also getting ****ed by the NZRFU through the schedule. Less injuries is better than having more players missing I suppose.

I think around 37/38 is about right. Any bigger like 2005 proved when Woodward picked 45 and the squad becomes too big. As that tour proved, every player has to be picked so that they feel they have a chance to make the test team. There will be injuries, as the tour goes along, and any players deemed unfit to last the tour will just be replaced.

 

[RedruthRFC]

I think around 37/38 is about right. Any bigger like 2005 proved when Woodward picked 45 and the squad becomes too big. As that tour proved, every player has to be picked so that they feel they have a chance to make the test team. There will be injuries, as the tour goes along, and any players deemed unfit to last the tour will just be replaced.

Too early for fringe players to start booking holidays to the north island to coincide with the later stages of the tour?

Good point about experience in your previous post BTW.

 

[Peat]

Hartley - maybe controversial, but last Lions tour proved you need a hooker who can throw under pressure and front, middle or back and his line out stats for England have been exceptional. Not to mention being a Kiwi he'll know the conditions well. He will also have something to prove after missing the last Lions squad and RWC through his own indiscipline. Plus there isn't a lot of strength in depth in this position imo.

Slightly pedantic, but given we won the last tour with Hibbard and Tom Youngs sharing the glory, I don't think it did prove that.

That said, there is a horrendous shortage of talent in the position, and assuming he can stay fit and unbanned he'll probably go. Pray for bolters in the 2 shirt.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Slightly pedantic, but given we won the last tour with Hibbard and Tom Youngs sharing the glory, I don't think it did prove that.

That said, there is a horrendous shortage of talent in the position, and assuming he can stay fit and unbanned he'll probably go. Pray for bolters in the 2 shirt.

Maybe your memory is short but Youngs was chosen to start the first two tests and Lions never had the back of the line out option, which would release backs; it severely limited the Lions' options at line out time. The Lions were lucky to get to 1-1 after two test. In the 3rd test Gatland just went for his biggest front three, which included Hibbard to scrum the Wallabies into submission. None of the hookers throwing was good enough; they got away with it largely because of the Wallabies were so **** poor in the scrum and Deans decided to pick a novice in JOC at 10.

You only have to look at ABs in the RWC to see how good their line out was v SA and Australia. I don't think Lions can go into another series without a hooker who can't hit their middle jumper consistently and give back of the line out option to release the backs.

 

[Peat]

There's a lot of truth to what you say there but I don't think you refuted my point - the Lions won it with those hookers, so it's not proof that you need said lineout hooker.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

There's a lot of truth to what you say there but I don't think you refuted my point - the Lions won it with those hookers, so it's not proof that you need said lineout hooker.

I think I did. They Got away with it v the Wallabies, with hookers whose main strength was not their line out throwing which in turn limited the Lions game plan but we shouldn't think the Lions can get away with this v the ABs. They should learn from the mistakes made in 2013, even though they did win with Youngs and Hibbard.

 

[Maverick1987]

Is it bad to hope the next coach hates England and doesn't pick any of our players ? I'd be happy for the celts to go to NZ . I'd even cheer for them ! whilst our important players are on an England tour which would be good for our development or sat at home having a rest .....

 

[Peat]

I think I did. They Got away with it v the Wallabies, with hookers whose main strength was not their line out throwing which in turn limited the Lions game plan but we shouldn't think the Lions can get away with this v the ABs. They should learn from the mistakes made in 2013, even though they did win with Youngs and Hibbard.

Well, I'm telling you that by my standards, you didn't If I wanted to make the case against hookers with dodgy throwing, I wouldn't have picked an example where the hookers got away with it.

But, as I said pedantry.

Honestly, we just need a hooker to come through from somewhere. None of the current lot are up to it. Hartley might be least worst, but he's still not good enough.

p.s. I'm pretty sure that the last NH hooker to beat New Zealand was in fact Tom Youngs and the last side to beat New Zealand did so winning only 70pc of their own lineouts.

Is it bad to hope the next coach hates England and doesn't pick any of our players ? I'd be happy for the celts to go to NZ . I'd even cheer for them ! whilst our important players are on an England tour which would be good for our development or sat at home having a rest .....

False hope is always bad.

 

[Tony Manx]

Interestingly, or not, Hartley is the only hooker I have seen in ages legally throw the ball in with his feet outside the field of play! Maybe they changed the rules and did not spot it but soon they will be standing on the 5 meter line........

 

[Colombia]

Interestingly, or not, Hartley is the only hooker I have seen in ages legally throw the ball in with his feet outside the field of play! Maybe they changed the rules and did not spot it but soon they will be standing on the 5 meter line........

Wut?

 

[LUKE12]

What do people think of this team

1) Cian Healy
2) Dylan Hartley
3) WP Nel
4) Maro Itoje
5) AWJ
6) Toby Faletau
7) Sam Warburton
8) Billy Vunipola

9) Rhys Webb
10) Johnny Sexton
11) George North
12) Manu Tuilagi
13) Jonathan Joseph
14) Anthony Watson
15) Stuart Hogg

16) Rory Best
17) Joe Marler
18) Samson Lee
19) George Kruis
20) Sean O'Brien
21) Danny Care
22) Henry Slade
23) Elliot Daly

Some of the decisions require a few of the players ie Healy, Daly getting played by their respective countries, but if they do they have the ability to make the 23 IMO

 

[Saint4805]

What do people think of this team

1) Cian Healy
2) Dylan Hartley
3) WP Nel
4) Maro Itoje
5) AWJ
6) Toby Faletau
7) Sam Warburton
8) Billy Vunipola

9) Rhys Webb
10) Johnny Sexton
11) George North
12) Manu Tuilagi
13) Jonathan Joseph
14) Anthony Watson
15) Stuart Hogg

16) Rory Best
17) Joe Marler
18) Samson Lee
19) George Kruis
20) Sean O'Brien
21) Danny Care
22) Henry Slade
23) Elliot Daly

Some of the decisions require a few of the players ie Healy, Daly getting played by their respective countries, but if they do they have the ability to make the 23 IMO

Warburton doesn't make it for me - would rather have Hardie in there. Also hard to see Gats dropping Roberts and 1/2P for Tuilagi and Hogg.
Would also like to see Iain Henderson, CJ Stander and Jonny Gray make the 23 (somehow).

 

[LUKE12]

Warburton doesn't make it for me - would rather have Hardie in there. Also hard to see Gats dropping Roberts and 1/2P for Tuilagi and Hogg.
Would also like to see Iain Henderson, CJ Stander and Jonny Gray make the 23 (somehow).

I agree with you off the back of this six nations and I really rate Hardie however between now and the lions tour lots of things can change and I reckon if Warburton returns to form and Gatland is the coach then hell definitely be picked

 

[Saint4805]

I agree with you off the back of this six nations and I really rate Hardie however between now and the lions tour lots of things can change and I reckon if Warburton returns to form and Gatland is the coach then hell definitely be picked

Fair point but the same applies to 1/2P.

Also I can't see the 23 including 3 England centres if only two will be starting next year's 6N.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Does it matter?
They are going to NZ... remember what happened in 2005?

 

[Saint4805]

Does it matter?
They are going to NZ... remember what happened in 2005?

Yes it was a well deserved series win for the ABs.

Who is in line for a spear tackle this time? Sexton or someone less deserving of one?

 

[Ospreylian]

What do people think of this team

1) Cian Healy
2) Dylan Hartley
3) WP Nel
4) Maro Itoje
5) AWJ
6) Toby Faletau
7) Sam Warburton
8) Billy Vunipola

9) Rhys Webb
10) Johnny Sexton
11) George North
12) Manu Tuilagi
13) Jonathan Joseph
14) Anthony Watson
15) Stuart Hogg

16) Rory Best
17) Joe Marler
18) Samson Lee
19) George Kruis
20) Sean O'Brien
21) Danny Care
22) Henry Slade
23) Elliot Daly

Some of the decisions require a few of the players ie Healy, Daly getting played by their respective countries, but if they do they have the ability to make the 23 IMO

That back row could be strong, but I personally prefer Tipuric over Warburton at the moment. And I can see a case for Hardie over both of them too, like some people have been arguing.

I feel Tuilagi needs more game time to prove his worth at international level again. Roberts, Henshaw, Taylor or Farrell would be more solid choices in that position right now. I also would see someone else over Hartley and a more consistent fly half than Sexton is right now.

Kruis may also push AWJ out of the starting XV atm too for me. He and Itoje are incredibly destructive and both have fantastic work rates these days.

 

[Thingimubob]

Does it matter?
They are going to NZ... remember what happened in 2005?

That 2005 All Blacks side was just ridiculously good though. The lions team facing them was poorly organized and the selection was definitely off.

This time should be a bit more competitive hopefully!