(Very) early thoughts on the 2017 Lions

[lynx54321]

Hardie is a shoe in for the backrow surely?

 

[RedruthRFC]

I'd say Nowell is far more inconsistent than Seymour tbh, I still don't get what Nowell provides other than speed.

Is this Jack Nowell you're talking about?!? He is many things, but quick (for an international winger) isn't one of them. I recall him being run down quite easily by a centre in an AP match. I can understand why anyone wouldn't rate him, he doesn't excel in any one aspect of the game that stands out, but (with the possible exception of a lack of pace) he doesn't have any glaring weaknesses. He has very quick feet, he defends well, he's strong in contact, he looks for work and has a great work rate. If you have a preference for an out and out finisher in the wing, you're not going to rate him, but his finishing isn't all that bad and the sum of his other contributions adds greatly to his value to any team. I just wish that Exeter and England would put their heads together and figure out his best position!

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Is this Jack Nowell you're talking about?!? He is many things, but quick (for an international winger) isn't one of them. I recall him being run down quite easily by a centre in an AP match. I can understand why anyone wouldn't rate him, he doesn't excel in any one aspect of the game that stands out, but (with the possible exception of a lack of pace) he doesn't have any glaring weaknesses. He has very quick feet, he defends well, he's strong in contact, he looks for work and has a great work rate. If you have a preference for an out and out finisher in the wing, you're not going to rate him, but his finishing isn't all that bad and the sum of his other contributions adds greatly to his value to any team. I just wish that Exeter and England would put their heads together and figure out his best position!

Agree with all of this. Personally I think he's best deployed at 13, but with the likes of Joseph, Daly and Tuilagi around he's not going to get into the England 13 shirt, so it's probably best leaving him out on the wing. Some people make an argument for fullback, but I honestly think he's fairly poor there. Definitely a 13 or wing in my eyes.

 

[Maverick1987]

Bet this would look a bit different today to everyone bar Valleycommando ! England and Scotland would have a few extra players in I think ......

 

[Peat]

Bet this would look a bit different today to everyone bar Valleycommando ! England and Scotland would have a few extra players in I think ......

*ponders*

Nah.

I'd probably wait to see how players get on in the autumn in any case, because this 6N was just a bit poo, but I didn't see a lot of players really advance their cases. Itoje, Rob Evans and Gareth Davies are the only three I'd say have done that for me, and in Davies' cases its more because Youngs has been awful. Oh. Duncan Taylor too I guess.

 

[Maverick1987]

*ponders*

Nah.

I'd probably wait to see how players get on in the autumn in any case, because this 6N was just a bit poo, but I didn't see a lot of players really advance their cases. Itoje, Rob Evans and Gareth Davies are the only three I'd say have done that for me, and in Davies' cases its more because Youngs has been awful. Oh. Duncan Taylor too I guess.

Yeh I'd agree with all but Gareth Davies . Mainly because I remain sceptical of this game management skills which were my feeling back as far as the Wales Aus game in the World Cup . I'll compile a short list of players whose stock has risen this 6N :
Rob Evans
Hartley (maturity and attitude more than anything)
Itoje
Kruis
Stander
Billy V
Faletau (he was awesome before but I felt he should have a mention anyway as his consistency is immense)
Hardie
Watson
Hogg
Seymour ?

And a few bolters for me would be :

Mckloskey (sorry on spelling if wrong)
Nowell
Dickinson
Van Der Flier

This is just off the top of my head so anyone want to add someone feel free

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

How's Jack McGrath seen outside of Ireland? Himself, Stander and Henshaw are the guys who've done brilliantly for us this championship. Is he a guy who's stock is risen or was he already there to begin with... Or, godforbid otherwise.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Who?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Who?

Me, I've brainwashed a lot of people to think I either don't exist or am a very good international prop. In reality? I'm an evil mastermind who wants to kill criminals who've wronged me. My name is Keyser Söze.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Who is Keyser Soze? He is supposed to be Irish. Some say his father was Welsh. Nobody believed he was real. Nobody ever saw him or knew anybody that ever worked directly for him, but to hear Groundhog tell it, anybody could have worked for Soze. You never knew. That was his power. The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist and that Healy is a decent rugby player. And like that, ****. He's gone.

 

[Maverick1987]

How's Jack McGrath seen outside of Ireland? Himself, Stander and Henshaw are the guys who've done brilliantly for us this championship. Is he a guy who's stock is risen or was he already there to begin with... Or, godforbid otherwise.

I really like him . But I have seen more of him for Leinster than Ireland . Leinster have been quite poor recently by their high standards so it's hard for these guys to stand out

My team as it stands is

1. Vunipola
2. Hartley (I'd rather someone else but no one has stood up at all)
3. Nel
4. Itoje
5. AWJ (capt)
6. Faletau (can't leave Toby or Billy out right now !)
7. SOB
8. Billy V
9. Webb
10. Really can't decide (part of me wants Ford to step up because he's so dangerous when playing well but no one has inspired me so far except Peter Horne in the game earlier !!)
11. North
12. Henshaw
13. Tuilagi
14. Watson
15. Hogg

Couple of explanations . I've picked a pack with lots of ball carriers for options everywhere . That's the rugby I like . I've put Webb, Henshaw, Watson and Hogg to add the scythe to Tuilagi and Norths sledgehammer . Also Nel just edges it for me because of his reliability with either Brookes or Lee on the bench

 

[Peat]

McGrath was always in contention for me.

Yeh I'd agree with all but Gareth Davies . Mainly because I remain sceptical of this game management skills which were my feeling back as far as the Wales Aus game in the World Cup . I'll compile a short list of players whose stock has risen this 6N :

The thing with Davies is... who else but him? Youngs' passing rules him out, Laidlaw is ponderous as all hell, Care never seems to get it together... there's Murray, Webb, and someone else, right now that someone else is Davies.

Rob Evans
Hartley (maturity and attitude more than anything)
Itoje
Kruis
Stander
Billy V
Faletau (he was awesome before but I felt he should have a mention anyway as his consistency is immense)
Hardie
Watson
Hogg
Seymour ?

Hartley's always tried hard, his problem for me is mediocrity, I am no more sold on him than before. Kruis I think still has a passel of better locks ahead of him. The Tongan Two, rated them before and rate them now - guess they have raised the bar to be fair. Seymour and Hardie, not quite sold on. Hogg... needs to do the basics better. Tbh, whoever goes on tour at FB, they're there to clean Halfpenny's boots at present. Although you've reminded me of Liam Williams, who I think has done well. I'd have had Watson to tour before.

Would like to see Stander play in a stronger Irish team but he wasn't consistently able enough for me. Might be an option I guess.

I am possibly being a bit too conservative here mind.

And a few bolters for me would be :

Mckloskey (sorry on spelling if wrong)
Nowell
Dickinson
Van Der Flier

McCloskey.

Nowell's been playing international rugby quite some time now... hardly a bolter

 

[TobesHodges]

Team:

1). Joe Marler
2). Dylan Hartley
3). WP Nel
4). Alun Wyn Jones
5). Maro Itoje
6). Chris Robshaw
7). Justin Tipuric
8). Billy Vunipola

9.) Gareth Davies
10). Owen Farrell
11). George North
12). Robbie Henshaw
13). Jonothan Davies
14). Tim Visser
15). Stuart Hogg


16). Rory Best
17). Mako Vunipola
18). Samson Lee
19). Jordan Henderson
20). Sam Warburton
21). Ben Youngs
22). Dan Bigger
23). Manu Tuilagi / Mike Brown

 

[chris walker]

40 man squad:

1.Marler
2.Hartley
3.Nel/Lee
4.Itoji
5.Jones (c)
6.Vunipola
7.Tipuric
8.Faletau


9.Webb
10.Sexton
11.North
12.Roberts
13.Jospeh
14.Watson
15.Halfpenny


16.Baldwin
17.Vunipola
18.Cole
19.Henderson
20.Hardie
21.Murray
22.Farrell
23.Hogg


24.George
25.Evans
26.Lee/Nel
27.Gray
28.Gray
29.Launchbury
30.O'Brien
31.Warburton
32.Stander/Robshaw
33.Youngs
34.Biggar
35.Henshaw
36.Payne
37.Bennett
38.Seymour
39.Trimble
40.Williams/Brown

The pack offers both grunt and flair, Lee or Nel should start at 3 but neither are bench players so Cole is on the bench regardless of who starts, vunipola goes to 6 because I think Faletau is a little sharper off the base of the scrum but both need to start. Roberts starts at 12 for me just because he always raises his game in the lions shirt and should get the lions over the gain line and Jospeh outside him will bring the creativity into the backline. North again like Roberts will raise his game in the lions shirt and Watson has been in solid form for the past few seasons and can score tries from
anywhere. Halfpenny starts at fullback because I think the lions will need his goal kicking ability as they're not going to get many chances against New Zealand so him able to kick goals from anywhere will prove vital. Baldwin should be on the bench because he's as solid as Hartley in the set-piece so they wouldn't lose much by subbing him, Vunipola, Henderson, Hardie and Hogg would also be good off the bench when the game opens up a bit and Murray and Farrell could be used to see the game out if they were in front. The wider squad then has players that are capable of making the match day squad depending on why style the lions want to play.

 

[scar123]

15. Stuart Hogg
14. Anthony Watson
13. Jonathan Davies
12. Robbie Henshaw
11. George North
10. Jonny Sexton
9. Rhys Webb
1. Jack McGrath
2. Dylan Hartley
3. Samson Lee
4. George Kruis
5. Alun Wyn Jones
6. Maro Itoje
7. Sam Warburton
8. Toby Faletau

16. Ken Owens
17. Rob Evans
18. WP Nel
19. Jonny Gray
20. John Hardie
21. Conor Murray
22. Dan Biggar
23. Tommy Seymour

 

[Bada-Bing!]

On the commute to work and jotted down a few names that I see challenging for a spot in the Lions squad 2017. Mainly gone for those with experience and also who had previous experience in the 2013 squad. Those in brackets, are those who will challenge and possibly replace those not in brackets, depending on form or injuries.


Props

Can Healy - included because I think he'll have a point to prove after getting injured in the last Lions squad.
Mako Vunipola
Joe Marler

(Rob Evans)
(Jack McGrath)
(Alasdair Dickinson)

Dan Cole
Samson Lee
WP Nel

(Kieran Brooks)
(Davy Wilson)

Hookers

Dylan Hartley
Jamie George
Scott Baldwin

(Ken Owens)
(Rory Best)
(Luke Cowan Dickie)

Locks

AWJ (captain)
Joe Launchbury
Maro Itoje
Ian Henderson
Johnny Gray

(Courtney Lawes)
(Richie Gray)
(Devon Toner)
(Luke Charteris)

Back Row

Dan Lydiate
Peter O'Mahoney
Sean O'Brien
Sam Warburton
Justin Tipuric

(C J Stander)
(James Haskell)
(John Hardie)

Talupe Faleteau
Billy Vunipola

(Jamie Heaslip)
(Dave Denton)


Scrum halves

Connor Murray
Ben Youngs
Rhys Webb

(Gareth Davies)
(Greig Laidlaw)
(Danny Care)

Fly-Halves

Johnny Sexton
Dan Biggar

(Owen Farrell)
(George Ford)
(Finn Russell)

Centres

Jamie Roberts
Manu Tuilagi
Jonathan Davies
Jonathan Joseph

(Robbie Henshaw)
(Mark Bennett)

Wings

George North
Tommy Seymore
Anthony Watson
Jack Nowell

(Alex Cuthbert)
(Tim Visser)
(Simon Zebo)
(Luke Fitzgerald)
(Johnny May)
(Christian Wade)

Full backs

Stuart Hogg
Lee Halfpenny

(Rob Kearney)
(Mike Brown)
(Liam Williams)

Utility

Henry Slade (full back, centre, fly half)


Potential 23:

1. Healy
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Itoje
5. AWJ
6. SOB
7. Warburton
8. Faletau
9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Roberts
13. Joseph
14. Seymore
15. Halfpenny
16. George
17. Vunipola
18. Nel
19. Henderson
20. Billy Vunipola
21. Webb
22. Biggar
23. Tuilagi

 

[Lancashire Nick]

I hate to be a killjoy, and it's been fun to read all these teams/squads; but in reality, the 2017 Lions squad will be heavily dependant on performances in next year's 6 Nations .................. As has been shown with previous tours, very little can be predicted 15 months out.

If I just take the English point of view, there are likely to be 4 or 5 players in this Grand Slam winning team who won't be there this time next year .................... Itoje will probably move to 6, and end Robshaw's international career. Once Slade and Tuilagi are fully fit, there will only be room for one out of Ford, Farrell and Joseph. I expect Eddie Jones to select a No7 with pace, even if it means trusting an inexperienced guy, and letting him learn on the job (with an eye to the next World Cup).

I'm sure the other Home Nations can say similar things, which means that about 30% of the potential toruists aren't even in the current 6 Nations teams.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Agreed. Form has meant that most people's team / squad right now would be quite different to what they would have picked before the 6 Nations kicked off. It's reasonable to expect even more changes following summer tours, Autumn internationals and the next 6 Nations.

That said, if people are clear on the basis on which they've picked their side (either picking it as things stand right now, or trying to predict form / bolters), where's the harm?

 

[Saint4805]

To be fair the ***le of the thread is (Very) early thoughts. I think most people recognise it's all a bit hypothetical at this early stage with a lot of rugby to be played over the next year. No harm in having a bit of fun speculating who might have made the squad based on this year's 6N

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I would also add that previous Lions tours and the RWC showed that experience counts. Barring injury there are certain players that are near certainty to be picked whoever the Lions coach is because as McGeechan calls them they are proven "test match animals". I would put the following in this category i.e. as long as they are fit in time they will be picked:

Hartley - maybe controversial, but last Lions tour proved you need a hooker who can throw under pressure and front, middle or back and his line out stats for England have been exceptional. Not to mention being a Kiwi he'll know the conditions well. He will also have something to prove after missing the last Lions squad and RWC through his own indiscipline. Plus there isn't a lot of strength in depth in this position imo.

AWJ
Sam Warburton
Sean O'Brien
Toby Faletau
Johnny Sexton
Jamie Roberts
Lee Halfpenny
George North

The rest of the squad; likely 37 based on 2013 Lions tour will obviously based on form from now on; both club and country, but a deciding factor will also be how well they played in previous Lions tours e.g. Lydiate isn't in great form at present, but if Gatland is Lions' coach I'm 95% certain he is another who will definitely make the final squad.

As Saint4805 says the ***le to this thread does say "early thoughts".