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(Very) early thoughts on the 2017 Lions

Even with Murphy's form this year, I'm still putting him bottom of the pecking order for 7. Just don't think he's much of a specialist and there's a lot of cracking 7s on that list. Guess putting him below Hask is harsh.

Ooops, hadn't noticed Nel at the bottom of the tighthead ratings. Should be 3rd at least.
 
Seems fair. Few things I'd disagree with big

6 - Given how little faith Jones has placed in Harrison, I can't see Gatland putting any in him. Wonder how hard Jones is thinking about Henderson/Itoje here.

7 - Murphy should be bottom of that list.

10 - Ford has a lot more experience of running an international game and, biased as I am to Jackson, should be ahead of him. Cipriani has no place on that list and should be replaced with Finn Russell. Gareth Anscombe could be a good sneaky bet for 3rd 10. Madigan, last I heard, wasn't even starting for Bordeaux. Forget him.

12/13 - Te'o is in the running. Gatland loves a gain line merchant and he's about as good as there is available. Huw Williams, as pointed out, is ahead of Bennett for Scotland, so probably ahead of him for the Lions (and more versatile iirc).

15 - Can't see Halfpenny as low at 5th choice in Gatland's thoughts. Again, Anscombe's name deserves a mention. Also, I think Jared Payne might get in as primarily a full-back, as he'd arguably be third best on that list.

Sure, I mean to be clear I think there's close to zero likilhood that Harrison goes, and you could argue that given Lydiates previous, he's more likely to go. Henderson / Itoje / Launchbury could all fit into 6 if needs be as you say.

Re Murphy - that list of opensides is a mixture of A) not in any particular form e.g Warburton B) Injured e.g Haskell C) Coming back to some form and not re-established within Irelands hierarchy - Sean O'Brien and D) Not first choice to begin with, i.e Tipuric. I'd say out of that lot Murphy has continuity on his side and some good form.

Re. Cipriani - this is largely my list of preferences - there's no chance Cipriani really goes, I'm well aware but he's simply better than Russell imo.

Te' o - fair

Yep, agree that Halfpenny is likely to win any tight calls. Mike Brown is almost certainly not touring - Kearney might be hard done by.



I won't reply with quote as it'll take up half the page. Your admission to being ignorant of Scottish rugby certainly shows but I won't hold that against you.

2. Fraser Brown is in great form right now and way ahead of Ross Ford (Brown actually used to play flanker and is very mobile)
3. Nel if fit and on form would be second behind Furlong
4/5. Johnny Gray is better than Devon Toner
10. Finn Russell should be in the top 3 on current form
11. I'd have Seymour ahead of Daly
13. Huw Jones is ahead of Mark Bennett

Thanks, well at least I didn't pretend otherwise!

First two points seem ok to me, but as far as I can see Nel isn't at the top of his game whilst Cole for England at least has been at his most impactful recently around the field.

I do really like Johnny Gray and maybe you're right but I think Toner's underrated and brings something not seen so much elsewhere beyond the likes of Charteris who is lower down. Love his maul work and we have plenty of more athletic second-row types.

Ok yeah, I mean I haven't been much of a fan when I've seen him but if he's on form maybe I just need to watch more of Glasgow

I'd also have Seymour ahead of Daly purely as a left winger, so I guess I wasn't clear - but I think Daly is more likely to tour, and indeed I would rather choose him, because he also plays other positions very well.

Re. Huw Jones - my bad, literally have seen so little of him I can't really comment - except to say I'm sure you're right.


Ringrose is naturally a 13, he'd played all of 70 minutes at 12 all at underage level prior to the AI's.
My extremely biased opinion would be to throw him invetween Daly and Joseph but that's because I think he's better than Daly but not necessarily Bennet or Davies if he ever hits form. I've only seen highlights of Huw Jones so can't really comment on him.


With Murphy's injury yeah, based on international form this year he'd be top of the list for me though.
 
Care, Webb and especially G Davies are all better than Laidlaw. Laidlaw adds nothing as a scrum half. He can kick at goal, thats about it.

Are you confusing Jordi Murphy with VDF? Murphy played 20 minutes against NZ before going down with a serious injury.
 
Care, Webb and especially G Davies are all better than Laidlaw. Laidlaw adds nothing as a scrum half. He can kick at goal, thats about it.

Are you confusing Jordi Murphy with VDF? Murphy played 20 minutes against NZ before going down with a serious injury.

Don't think so.... VDF usually wears a scrum cap right?

Also, on current form I think Joe Launchbury is the best lock in the north. He's mad at the moment. I may have misrepresented things by having Itoje at the top, since he'll have some work to do to unseat any of the top 5.
 
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Interesting way to look at the list might be to divide it as

Confident they'll match their AB counterpart or better them

Confident they won't look out of place

Confident they shouldn't be there

For example, I'd only have McGrath in the first category for loosehead, but everyone down to Marler for the second. After Marler I begin to feel dubious (with apologies if my poor knowledge of Scottish rugby is making me miss someone). Maybe Rob Evans should be category 2.
 
Care, Webb and especially G Davies are all better than Laidlaw. Laidlaw adds nothing as a scrum half. He can kick at goal, thats about it.

Are you confusing Jordi Murphy with VDF? Murphy played 20 minutes against NZ before going down with a serious injury.

Our lack of kickers is keeping Laidlaw in the Scotland team. If Russell or Hogg were competent kickers Ali Price would be playing instead of Laidlaw. It's a shame Price hasn't been able to showcase his talent at international level because he's been a star for Glasgow. His partnership with Russell is particularly good.
 
Don't think so.... VDF usually wears a scrum cap right?

Also, on current form I think Joe Launchbury is the best lock in the north. He's mad at the moment. I may have misrepresented things by having Itoje at the top, since he'll have some work to do to unseat any of the top 5.

He does yeah. Murphy has played 1 and half tests this year. He hasn't played since Chicago. I don't know how you're picking him on that.

O'Briens performance against NZ separates him from the competition. None of them (Warburton included) are capable of effecting the game in every area like he did, in what was a brutal game.
 
Our lack of kickers is keeping Laidlaw in the Scotland team. If Russell or Hogg were competent kickers Ali Price would be playing instead of Laidlaw. It's a shame Price hasn't been able to showcase his talent at international level because he's been a star for Glasgow. His partnership with Russell is particularly good.

Russell's place kicking stats for Glasgow came up during the Racing game as I think 86% - surprisingly good given I had him down as not really a kicker. Obviously raw percentage kicking stats can be misleading, what is he like as a kicker?
 
He does yeah. Murphy has played 1 and half tests this year. He hasn't played since Chicago. I don't know how you're picking him on that.

O'Briens performance against NZ separates him from the competition. None of them (Warburton included) are capable of effecting the game in every area like he did, in what was a brutal game.

Sean O'Brien has to start, so it's either at 7 or 6. I'd have him at 7 if David Seymour won't tour just incase he single handily beats the All Blacks
 
To be fair that was from 3/4 years ago. I'd hope he's improved a bit since then.

I'm pretty sure this year I've seen him throw directly into touch again and have definitely seen him butcher overlaps by not passing multiple times.
 
I'm pretty sure this year I've seen him throw directly into touch again and have definitely seen him butcher overlaps by not passing multiple times.
Aye, happened a lot over the autumn, his hands were almost comically bad.

I think Toner's underrated and brings something not seen so much elsewhere
Being really tall? I think that's the only place he has his rivals beat, to be fair.
Toner's come on massively in recent seasons but I don't see him as one of the top few of B&I.
 
Aye, happened a lot over the autumn, his hands were almost comically bad.


Being really tall? I think that's the only place he has his rivals beat, to be fair.
Toner's come on massively in recent seasons but I don't see him as one of the top few of B&I.

if being really tall trumps everything else then i guess we're looking at a a pairing of Charteris and Toner
 
Aye, happened a lot over the autumn, his hands were almost comically bad.

Yeah, his passing is pretty atrocious. Unacceptable that an attacking movement is halted because one of his passes sails over the head of the recipient and straight into touch. I've stated previously that I'd remove him from the Wales squad until he develops his passing. Should be the minimum of requirements for all professional rugby players!
 
2 players from an Irish perspective I'm surprised have been very rarely mentioned at all is Jared Payne (at 15) and Peter O'Mahony. Pretty rubbish time for injuries for them but if they pick up where they left off, I see no reason why either of them couldn't be fighting for a starting spot.
Its likey a lot of people haven't seen Payne at fullback since he only plays there for Ulster (he did very well against SA tbf at fb), but that guy can cut defenses apart and I think his rugby mind would be perfect against NZ.

My team FWIW

1: McGrath
2: Best
3: Furlong
4: Itoje
5: AWJ
6: Stander
7: O'Brien
8: Vunipola
9: Murray
10: Sexton
11: Watson
12: Henshaw
13: Joseph
14: North
15: Hogg

16: Vunipola
17: Hartley
18: Cole
19: Launchbury
20: Henderson
21: Youngs
22: Farrell
23: Williams

AWJ and North in there on the basis that they will likely pick up form and in a proper motivated environment will be at their best.
Admittedly, a lot of Irish in there however I don't think there's any you couldn't argue a case for them starting.
 
2 players from an Irish perspective I'm surprised have been very rarely mentioned at all is Jared Payne (at 15) and Peter O'Mahony. Pretty rubbish time for injuries for them but if they pick up where they left off, I see no reason why either of them couldn't be fighting for a starting spot.
Its likey a lot of people haven't seen Payne at fullback since he only plays there for Ulster (he did very well against SA tbf at fb), but that guy can cut defenses apart and I think his rugby mind would be perfect against NZ.

My team FWIW

1: McGrath
2: Best
3: Furlong
4: Itoje
5: AWJ
6: Stander
7: O'Brien
8: Vunipola
9: Murray
10: Sexton
11: Watson
12: Henshaw
13: Joseph
14: North
15: Hogg

16: Vunipola
17: Hartley
18: Cole
19: Launchbury
20: Henderson
21: Youngs
22: Farrell
23: Williams

AWJ and North in there on the basis that they will likely pick up form and in a proper motivated environment will be at their best.
Admittedly, a lot of Irish in there however I don't think there's any you couldn't argue a case for them starting.

I like the team, the only Irish bias that I might challenge or not would be Nel coming back at tight head or Cole starting. Won't push that too hard though.

Second one is stander, don't think he's got enough stand out qualities over and above being just very good (hope that makes sense). I think we may see lauchberry and AWJ at lock and Itoje at 6. Just have a feeling.

Great team though won't moan at all if I see that.
 
Although he'll want to play. The last thing George North needs is three tests against the Kiwi's after the year or so he's had. He needs the summer off to rest.
 
Anyone who's watched Williams play in the last 2 years will know he's a very good boy who plays his rugby and doesn't get caught up in the nonsense anymore. He's an example of a player who was scum but actually did something to calm down and behave like an adult. Also he's one of the most gifted and elusive attackers in the isles. Not as good as Hogg in some areas, but still very well rounded.
I've a big soft spot for him since he stopped being such a ****ly little ****.
 
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