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(Very) early thoughts on the 2017 Lions

Have to say that Ford was very wobbly yesterday in general play, especially when he wasn't getting front foot ball. His goal kicking was terrible as well. Not saying his England form shouldn't count but (non) performances like that surely add to the bigger picture.
 
welshglory said:
Have to say that Ford was very wobbly yesterday in general play, especially when he wasn't getting front foot ball. His goal kicking was terrible as well. Not saying his England form shouldn't count but (non) performances like that surely add to the bigger picture.
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This the problem in mentality....all of the Bath team played poorly yesterday and it was pretty insipid throughout. (Except Roko when he got the ball).

Simply put you can't blame Ford or any one individual player when a team performance is that poor. We were so far out of the running that game it was silly. If the Lions play like that against NZ it doesn't matter if we have a fly half who goes missing in those circumstances we will lose and lose badly.
 
He wasn't helped by Fotuali'i''s poor control of the forwards either to be fair, Murray, Webb or Youngs won't be so careless.

In saying that i believe that the Flyhalf needs to stand up and take the game by the scruff of the neck at times and be a leader. Bath continued to go through the phases even when they weren't making any headway and lacked direction. From what i've seen of Ford he doesn't seem to have that attribute. I think that's something he needs to work on to develop more. South Africa (if their forwards and defence improve) in the autumn should be a good test of his flexibility.
 
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I want to make it clear that i'm not singling out Ford, in fact i rate him very highly as a player. However, as a leading candidate for the fly-half position he needs to be appropriately analysed.
 
Maybe Ford deals with playing behind a beaten pack worse than other candidates (maybe). If that is the case, it is the definition of a secondary problem - sort your pack out and this problem goes away.
 
Two things,

1) I think we see Ford behind a beaten pack at Bath far more often (if ever) we see Farrell behind a beaten pack at Saracens. Ford's problem's are more pronounced because we see him in that position far more often. England only real peroframnce behind a beaten pack where Ford came out with no credit was the Ireland game last year.

2) Maybe it's the Bath fan in me but I always feel Ford gets a rough ride for not being pull out magic tricks when he's getting poor service from the 9 guys in front him of him. I don't know but it's just a perception that people seam to be very quick to harp on about Ford not being good enough and it's all his fault when things go wrong rather than anything other players.

Case in point the harge down try last six nations. Yes Ford deserves a fair proportion of the blame for carrying on with the clearance kick but a lot people wouldn't give any proportion of the blame to Ben Youngs for throwing the ball at his feat leading to the problem in the first place.
 
Shouldn't Gatland employ Eddie Jones as part of his coaching staff ? He could be backline coach.
 
ncurd said:
2) Maybe it's the Bath fan in me but I always feel Ford gets a rough ride for not being pull out magic tricks when he's getting poor service from the 9 guys in front him of him. I don't know but it's just a perception that people seam to be very quick to harp on about Ford not being good enough and it's all his fault when things go wrong rather than anything other players.
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I think that's true tbh, although it's not just Ford - English fans seem to have a natural distrust of creative 10s. Despite our pleas for a play-maker, any we get are always scrunitised to the nth degree with errors being spotlighted.

It would be great if we had a o/h with rock solid game management and creative genius but those are in very short supply and in IMHO, we prefer game management over flair as there are fewer obvious errors to point at (although we'll still ***** about them not being creative enough :)).
 
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For me, the sort of pressure that Ford tends to fail under - that being where the pack is second best for the majority of the match - is the sort where we lose anyway. He can cope with being on the back foot for extended periods as long as the pack still holds - see the Australia tour and Bath vs Saints this season.
 
ncurd said:
Two things,

1) I think we see Ford behind a beaten pack at Bath far more often (if ever) we see Farrell behind a beaten pack at Saracens. Ford's problem's are more pronounced because we see him in that position far more often. England only real peroframnce behind a beaten pack where Ford came out with no credit was the Ireland game last year.

2) Maybe it's the Bath fan in me but I always feel Ford gets a rough ride for not being pull out magic tricks when he's getting poor service from the 9 guys in front him of him. I don't know but it's just a perception that people seam to be very quick to harp on about Ford not being good enough and it's all his fault when things go wrong rather than anything other players.

Case in point the harge down try last six nations. Yes Ford deserves a fair proportion of the blame for carrying on with the clearance kick but a lot people wouldn't give any proportion of the blame to Ben Youngs for throwing the ball at his feat leading to the problem in the first place.
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I don't think you remember that Ireland game... England completely bossed it, great scarmble defence, terrible finishing and an on fire Sexton and Henshaw was why it was somewhat close.
 
The Alpha Bro said:
I don't think you remember that Ireland game... England completely bossed it, great scarmble defence, terrible finishing and an on fire Sexton and Henshaw was why it was somewhat close.
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Don't think we bossed it completely outplayed especially at the breakdown (mention Lancaster era mentions us being ****e there). and it wasn't close we lost by 10 points an never really looked like getting the front foot.

Infact part of Ford's poor game was literally trying anything to try get us in the game and nothing was working.
 
ncurd said:
Don't think we bossed it completely outplayed especially at the breakdown (mention Lancaster era mentions us being ****e there). and it wasn't close we lost by 10 points an never really looked like getting the front foot.

Infact part of Ford's poor game was literally trying anything to try get us in the game and nothing was working.
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Sorry, read last year and thought last season ie. 6 nations 2016.
 
I agree with what others have said, Farrell spends most of his time behind a pack that is dominating. Farrell started behind a pack that was not getting it all its own way in the world cup and both times we lost. Sarries have the best forward pack in Europe whilst Bath have had forwards that have been laughably bad at times. Compare how many Bath forwards are in England contention to how many backs, now compare Sarries forwards in England contention to Sarries backs. When Ford has been operating behind the England pack, especially since Jones took over and they have become more dominant, he has outclassed Farrell. Get a solid England pack, Robson at 9 and I think Ford will be much much better than Farrell.
 
This discussion has got me wondering, what can a FH do behind a beaten pack? It's all very well opining one way or the other about Ford or whoever's relative performances but I for one am not sure I actually have a clear idea in my head what his "brief" actually is in that situation.

Personally the best answer I can come up with is to make sure his forwards are at least playing in the right areas. The intuitive answer of "play through the backs instead" is not actually feasible IMO, as no backline performs well without good ball - just like no flyhalf does
 
dai_seven said:
After 2 rounds of the 6 Nations, I was thinking about next year's Lions candidates especially the Captain and Coach.

Hopefully, it will be agreed that the choice of captain should be someone who is the 1st choice in their position. Although some of us outside of England were surprised by Dylan Hartley's selection, I think he has proved himself in the first 2 games. The lineout went a bit wrong yesterday for England but maybe that was a glitch. His all round play has been excellent and has the nod for me in his position over the other hookers. Other candidates like Sam Warburton or Chris Robshaw have been stymied by selection at 6 - neither has been as effective as when they play 7. The only other person I would throw into the mix at this early stage is Alun Wyn Jones but he hasn't captained internationally too often.

As for the Coach, I think Warren Gatland is still in prime position as Wales will allow him the time off to prepare. Joe Schmidt would be a good choice as well as he prepare his sides well. Vern Cotter is struggling with Scotland.

I will say that Eddie Jones is probably the best choice as he has turned England around as a team but I can't see him wanting to give up the time nor the RFU wanting him to either.
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3-0 All Blacks no other outcome is likely. the lions concept is out of date and repeated series losses make it like a busted flush. it be nice if the lions win but I'd be totally indifferent and won't lose a wink of sleep what ever happens.
 

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