(Very) early thoughts on the 2017 Lions

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Payne at 15 is a class act. Best 15 on this side of world in my eyes. He won't tour as his age will possibly go against him. I cant argue on Williams as he has been superb too.
On POM he's fit and was back preseason with Munster yesterday. He's bulked up a bit but still good stamina as his 1km test suggested.

On your squad I think guys like Dillane could bolt there too with a big season. I can see Halfpenny not making it too. Any French based player is hugely disadvantaged

With the quality of locks around I can't see Dillane there, which is a shame because I quite like him. Never the less, I'd have thought the 4 English locks, Henderson, Wyn Jones and the Gray bros are ahead of him.

Halfpenny has stated his intention to move back to Welsh rugby so that he can tour with the Lions. And I can't see any FBs keeping him out.

As for POM, there's a difference between being physically fit and being back to form. Hopefully the injury hasn't taken too much of a toll on him, because when at his best, he can compete with best rowers in the world.

 

[Rich Taff]

Surprisingly, I can see AWJ being left out. The ridiculous number of very high quality 2nd rows coming out of England mean there are many similar (and younger) players. I'd probably put go-go-gadget (Charteris) in before AWJ at the moment, due to his ability to totally destroy mauls.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Surprisingly, I can see AWJ being left out. The ridiculous number of very high quality 2nd rows coming out of England mean there are many similar (and younger) players. I'd probably put go-go-gadget (Charteris) in before AWJ at the moment, due to his ability to totally destroy mauls.

Charteris was poor today. I've never really rated him much. And whether he should be or not, there's no chance Jones is getting left out, especially if Gatland's coach. Personally I'd like to see
4. Itoje
5. Alun Wyn
6. Henderson

Itoje and Henderson are undoubtedly the 2 best locks, but neither is a line out operator, so you can't put them in the second row together. Maybe Kruis in over Alun Wyn as the line out man?

 

[Rich Taff]

Charteris was poor today. I've never really rated him much. And whether he should be or not, there's no chance Jones is getting left out, especially if Gatland's coach.

The entire Welsh team were poor today, but personally I put it down to a game too far. Charteris is one of the few players who've improved immensely with their move to France (on the international scene).

I assume by the final comment that you're convinced that Gatland only took Wales players on the last tour because he coaches them, and not because they were 6n champs?

I'm pretty sure Gatland will take the best players available to him. He doesn't strike me as the most sentimental of people.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

The entire Welsh team were poor today, but personally I put it down to a game too far. Charteris is one of the few players who've improved immensely with their move to France (on the international scene).

I assume by the final comment that you're convinced that Gatland only took Wales players on the last tour because he coaches them, and not because they were 6n champs?

I'm pretty sure Gatland will take the best players available to him. He doesn't strike me as the most sentimental of people.

My last comment was simply a thing of that if there are close calls he'll probably go with the player he's worked with before. And he's worked with Alun Wyn a lot. Not so much a sentimentality or bias, just a thing of wanting to work with players he knows, like Alun Wyn.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Fullback is one of the easiest picks, I reckon.
Despite being a massive **** Liam Williams has been absolutely superb this season. If he maintains it next season then the selection process is merely a formality.

 

[Rich Taff]

My last comment was simply a thing of that if there are close calls he'll probably go with the player he's worked with before. And he's worked with Alun Wyn a lot. Not so much a sentimentality or bias, just a thing of wanting to work with players he knows, like Alun Wyn.

Ah ok.
Sorry, I went into defensive mode there

Yeah, if it's a 50/50 he'll go with someone he knows he can trust, but at the moment the 4/5 production line coming out of England isn't making it a 50/50 decision, so the only reason I can see for his 'guaranteed' selection is his leadership ability.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Fullback is one of the easiest picks, I reckon.
Despite being a massive **** Liam Williams has been absolutely superb this season. If he maintains it next season then the selection process is merely a formality.

I wouldn't say it's as open an closed as that. Williams has to be in there somewhere, but it could be on the wing with Hogg at FB.
In my mind there are very few players that we can comfortably attribute to a position, but I would've thought some are:
1. McGrath
2. Hartley
11. North

Everywhere else there is competition:
3. Nel/Cole
4. Itoje/Henderson (Both have to be in somewhere but it's unclear whether they'll both be in the second row or if 1 will be at 6)
5. Alun Wyn/Kruis
6. POM/Henderson/Itoje/Stander
7. Warburton/O'Brien/Hardie
8. Faletau/Vunipola
9. Webb/Murray
10. Sexton/Ford/Faz
12. Faz/Roberts/Henshaw/Davies
13. Joseph/Davies/Henshaw
14. Williams/Nowell/Watson
15. Williams/Hogg

- - - Updated - - -

Ah ok.
Sorry, I went into defensive mode there

Yeah, if it's a 50/50 he'll go with someone he knows he can trust, but at the moment the 4/5 production line coming out of England isn't making it a 50/50 decision, so the only reason I can see for his 'guaranteed' selection is his leadership ability.

I agree his place in the XV is very questionable, but he's a guarantee in the squad, as you said, even if it is only for his leadership qualities. Now that POC and BOD are gone, Alun wyn and Warburton are the only Lions leaders left.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Williams is so much better than Hogg, though.
Hogg will tour as token Scot, but good enough to be a starter? Give him some open space to have a run and he looks world class, but up there with the best 15s in the world? Nah.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Williams is so much better than Hogg, though.
Hogg will tour as token Scot, but good enough to be a starter? Give him some open space to have a run and he looks world class, but up there with the best 15s in the world? Nah.

I agree Williams is better than Hogg, if it was either/or, then Williams is clearly the right choice. But other than North, no wingers have been particularly impressive, so putting Williams there with Hogg FB is far from a bad option. It isn't the 1 I'd go for, but it's a possibility.

 

[Rich Taff]

I wouldn't say it's as open an closed as that. Williams has to be in there somewhere, but it could be on the wing with Hogg at FB.
In my mind there are very few players that we can comfortably attribute to a position, but I would've thought some are:
1. McGrath
2. Hartley
11. North

Everywhere else there is competition:
3. Nel/Cole
4. Itoje/Henderson (Both have to be in somewhere but it's unclear whether they'll both be in the second row or if 1 will be at 6)
5. Alun Wyn/Kruis
6. POM/Henderson/Itoje/Stander
7. Warburton/O'Brien/Hardie
8. Faletau/Vunipola
9. Webb/Murray
10. Sexton/Ford/Faz
12. Faz/Roberts/Henshaw/Davies
13. Joseph/Davies/Henshaw
14. Williams/Nowell/Watson
15. Williams/Hogg

- - - Updated - - -



I agree his place in the XV is very questionable, but he's a guarantee in the squad, as you said, even if it is only for his leadership qualities. Now that POC and BOD are gone, Alun wyn and Warburton are the only Lions leaders left.

I just realised that if you change the names, then this is a weekly conundrum that New Zealanders face.

I cried a little.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I just realised that if you change the names, then this is a weekly conundrum that New Zealanders face.

I cried a little.

Nah, New Zealanders know they're going to win regardless of who they pick.

 

[munstermuffin]

With the quality of locks around I can't see Dillane there, which is a shame because I quite like him. Never the less, I'd have thought the 4 English locks, Henderson, Wyn Jones and the Gray bros are ahead of him.

Halfpenny has stated his intention to move back to Welsh rugby so that he can tour with the Lions. And I can't see any FBs keeping him out.

As for POM, there's a difference between being physically fit and being back to form. Hopefully the injury hasn't taken too much of a toll on him, because when at his best, he can compete with best rowers in the world.

Oh I agree but like every tour we will get bolters. Guys who hit form.
On Halfpenny isn't he confirmed as staying in France though?

On POM, that's fair point but equally will guys like Haskell maintain form. 12 months ago he wasn't rated much was he? Point being 12 months is long time.
Guys with flexibility will have better chances to. Like Itoje or Henderson that cover 6 and lock.
Imagine Henderson and Itoje in same line.

 

[Zapphod]

Nah, New Zealanders know they're going to win regardless of who they pick.

Not sure how you draw that conclusion, while Kiwi's have a lot of faith in the All Blacks to win we have also seen enough World Cup quarter finals to know that we are beatable.

 

[Rich Taff]

we have also seen enough World Cup quarter finals to know that we are beatable.

We haven't. *mutter*

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Not sure how you draw that conclusion, while Kiwi's have a lot of faith in the All Blacks to win we have also seen enough World Cup quarter finals to know that we are beatable.

I can't tell if your being overly modest or joining in my joke! World Cup quarter finals are every 4 years, you've lost one!

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Oh I agree but like every tour we will get bolters. Guys who hit form.
On Halfpenny isn't he confirmed as staying in France though?

On POM, that's fair point but equally will guys like Haskell maintain form. 12 months ago he wasn't rated much was he? Point being 12 months is long time.
Guys with flexibility will have better chances to. Like Itoje or Henderson that cover 6 and lock.
Imagine Henderson and Itoje in same line.

Oh I've imagined it and I've been through many tissues doing so. They can't be 2nd rows together though. 1 has to be at 6 with Alun Wyn or Kruis as the other 2nd row, otherwise there's no line out operator. At the moment I'd go for Itoje-Kruis 2nds to maintain their partnership, Henderson 6. 8 is clearly Faletau. Billy provides competition but not much. We're low on 7s. Hopefully Warbs or SOB can find form by then. If not, POM at 7?

 

[Rich Taff]

Oh I've imagined it and I've been through many tissues doing so.

Sorry, but that just sounds wrong.....

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Sorry, but that just sounds wrong.....

Yes. Yes it does.

 

[nightmarehitter]

The All Blacks most certainly fear losing, its the fear of losing that makes us constantly evolve. I know every team in the world hates losing but for the All Blacks and the NZ rugby public its extremely horrifying to experience a loss in a black jersey. That is why as a nation we are gripped and demanding in our expectations of how the All Blacks perform.

I am very glad that England rolled Australia 3 - 0. Australia were extremely poor throughout the series and if Australia had managed to snag a victory it would of raised some concerns over the strength on the Lions heading to NZ shores. 3 - 0 allows up some great northern hope and hype - though if the Lions can concede 40 points in a game like England did in the final game then the All Blacks will roll them much more easily than people suspect.

I expect this will be an epic series, we have 12 months to have the next generation of All Blacks ready for an out and out war. This is what New Zealand as a nation lives for - the fear of All Blacks death/loss and the challenge to overcome it with our skill sets and determination.