Third Test: Australia v British and Irish Lions (06/07/13)

[munstermuffin]

Didn't Shane Williams have around the same number of caps at this point in his career?

(Ben Smith has 15 caps at 27 + a month old. Shane got his first cap 3 weeks shy of his 23rd birthday, and played 18 games in the 4 years following until he was 27 + a month old.)

Just saying that some players show class later in their careers... (don't know much about Smith)

And others just aren't picked in spite of their class *grumbling about JSD's lack of caps* or because of intense rivalry.

Big difference in how Wales operate and how All Blacks operate

 

[Rich Taff]

Didn't Shane Williams have around the same number of caps at this point in his career?

(Ben Smith has 15 caps at 27 + a month old. Shane got his first cap 3 weeks shy of his 23rd birthday, and played 18 games in the 4 years following until he was 27 + a month old.)

Just saying that some players show class later in their careers... (don't know much about Smith)

And others just aren't picked in spite of their class *grumbling about JSD's lack of caps* or because of intense rivalry.

Ok, been racking my brains, but failed. Who's JSD?

(I know I'm going to be embarrassed when you say )

 

[psychic duck]

Ok, been racking my brains, but failed. Who's JSD?

(I know I'm going to be embarrassed when you say )

This guy.

 

[dullonien]

Ok, been racking my brains, but failed. Who's JSD?

(I know I'm going to be embarrassed when you say )

James Simpson Daniel.

 

[Rich Taff]

D'oh!!! (told you i'd be embarassed )

 

[admartian]

Ben Smith is hardly a freak at scoring tries - I don't think I've ever seen an exceptional try from him. He's the king of the half breaks - he breaks the line regularly and then doesn't have support or the finishing ability to get over the line himself.

I agree - but I think that he's been able to do that in the last 2 years consistently is pretty good.

Damn I fogot that. He also P*sses rainbows and farts cinnamon.

If you wanna tastte - they sell that in a bakery in Canterbury.

I
That's one of the reasons why people have been calling for him to fill in at centre, I guess. He's actually not that fast for someone in the back three - I notice that he's rarely able to save a try once an opposition winger or fullback makes a linebreak (although he always tries his best), and it's probably one of the reasons why he doesn't score as many tries as you would expect for the amount of linebreaks he makes.
According to www.rugbystats.com.au (I'm not sure how accurate they are), he made 13 linebreaks (2nd only to Gear with 14) but only scored 5 tries (joint 13th). Although the most telling stat on that website might be that the Highlanders have three players in the top 15 linebreakers (Gear 1st, B Smith 2nd, Poki 9th) but none in try assists.

Would love to at least see Ben Smith at 13 for a string of games in the Black jersey. Been interested in this for a while now.

He only stepped up this year (kind of like Ranger in that regard). From what I can remember he was considered a bit of a journeyman before - solid, but nothing spectacular.

Agreed. But imo, has clearly stepped up his game in the last two years.

TBH, a lot of the (overhype)praise is tongue-in-cheek. Kinda like <insert TRF-created deities here>.

 

[donmcdazzle]

Ben Smith has been great for about 3-4 years or so but up till now he's been stuck behind Toeava who consistently got selected ahead of him as the "utility back" (Ben Smith has the skills to play any position 10 - 15) I'm sure in hindsight the coaches regret that decision. Ben Smith would clearly have been the better option all along.

It's also true that this year his form has been so good even if Toeava was still around Smith would surely get the nod. At super rugby level Ben is the form player in the NZ game. And if a player of the series was named for the recent french series it would surely have been Ben Smith.

dont believe it when others say he's only been good this year, even going back to 2011 he was one of the leading meter runners and line/tackle breakers in super rugby with an astonishingly low error rate. He actually made his all blacks debut in 2010. He was clearly overlooked for selection based on his size, he's pretty small compared to Toeava or similar players in NZ.

He hasn't been that good for 3-4 years. He was always solid but has been noticeably better this season. It is easy to say now he would have been the better option than Toeava, but at the time not many were complaining. Toeava was really good when not injured, that one season for the blues he was awesome (2011?). Smith lacks a bit of pace, I've seen him get dusted on the outside a few times. If he played 10 then I hope it was for his local club team, you are over rating him.

 

[nickdnz]

He hasn't been that good for 3-4 years. He was always solid but has been noticeably better this season. It is easy to say now he would have been the better option than Toeava, but at the time not many were complaining. Toeava was really good when not injured, that one season for the blues he was awesome (2011?). Smith lacks a bit of pace, I've seen him get dusted on the outside a few times. If he played 10 then I hope it was for his local club team, you are over rating him.

^
This.

I also find it funny saying Toeava got in over Smith because of size.

Ben Smith: 1.86m - 91kgs
Isaia Toeava: 1.81m - 97kgs
Cory Jane: 1.83m - 91kgs
Israel Dagg: 1.86m - 96kgs
Zac Guildford: 1.82m - 96kgs

It's not like he's been selected ahead of huge outside backs..

 

[Largejanner]

With so many Welsh players involved in this tour, any other Welsh fan think that this could be a turning point in terms of Wales v SH sides? This will surely give them the confidence to go out there and turn 'em over. For once, maybe the Lions tour will be of benefit to Welsh rugby!

snigger.

 

[Ospreylian]

snigger.

Your counter-arguments never cease to impress me, largejanner.....

 

[Largejanner]

Your counter-arguments never cease to impress me, largejanner.....

Well, like most Welsh rugby fans, you are easily impressed!

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

When going into it they said this is the Lions, not Wales so Wales past performance vs SH should be ignored. Now it's won it's suddenly a Wales win and not a Lions win. It's Welsh players who will feel good, Welsh players who won it, Wales Wales Wales. Kindly Welsh people decide if this was a Liosn tour or a Welsh tour, don't pick and choose.

 

[munstermuffin]

Think to put it to bed - Wales simply take credit and feel like they have the win. The majority of the other 3 are happy the series is won but have a sour taste about it as it didn't feel like a Lions series win and the team for last test was to heavy with 1 nation with some calls bias that it didn't have that Lions feel or style to it

 

[j'nuh]

Think to put it to bed - Wales simply take credit and feel like they have the win. The majority of the other 3 are happy the series is won but have a sour taste about it as it didn't feel like a Lions series win and the team for last test was to heavy with 1 nation with some calls bias that it didn't have that Lions feel or style to it

Ireland would have had a bigger contingent if Healy, POC and Ferris not gotten injured, and Best hadn't fallen to crap.
Scotland simply don't have good enough players. I thought a few of their players were lucky to be on tour. Laidlaw would have been the only Scot to make it into my match day squad.
For England, I think Tuilagi would have made a bigger impact had he not been injured, and Morgan imo is the unluckiest non-tourist, but otherwise I was quite happy with the English contingent.

 

[Ospreylian]

Think to put it to bed - Wales simply take credit and feel like they have the win. The majority of the other 3 are happy the series is won but have a sour taste about it as it didn't feel like a Lions series win and the team for last test was to heavy with 1 nation with some calls bias that it didn't have that Lions feel or style to it

As a Welsh fan I can honestly tell you that it does not feel like Wales "have the win", as you put it. Some of my favourite players of the tour were not Welsh - Corbisiero was outstanding and someone I wish was Welsh atm (we could do with a more consistently solid loosehead these days with Jenkins' form wavering), Parling played out of his skin in the last test and was very underrated all tour imo. T Youngs won me over, after I had criticised some aspects of his game before the tour began, but he really proved his worth in both the scrum and lineout. And players like Bowe and Sexton obviously had a big part to play in attack and defence.

In that last test I think Corbs' try got the biggest cheer from me, so it's not as if us Welsh are just cheering on our favourite Welsh players. The series was won on the back of a large squad effort and a lot of background work that we don't notice as the fans. It's not just about the 15 men on the field.

 

[munstermuffin]

As a Welsh fan I can honestly tell you that it does not feel like Wales "have the win", as you put it. Some of my favourite players of the tour were not Welsh - Corbisiero was outstanding and someone I wish was Welsh atm (we could do with a more consistently solid loosehead these days with Jenkins' form wavering), Parling played out of his skin in the last test and was very underrated all tour imo. T Youngs won me over, after I had criticised some aspects of his game before the tour began, but he really proved his worth in both the scrum and lineout. And players like Bowe and Sexton obviously had a big part to play in attack and defence.

In that last test I think Corbs' try got the biggest cheer from me, so it's not as if us Welsh are just cheering on our favourite Welsh players. The series was won on the back of a large squad effort and a lot of background work that we don't notice as the fans. It's not just about the 15 men on the field.

I don't mean it as Welsh fans saying it but while you don't feel like that alot do and it not about individual players etc its more in the interest etc like majority of Irish were realistically more glad the heat wave is sizzling us and weren't overly bothered about Lions result. They were hoping they'd win but it wasn't the same hype as I'd expected

 

[dullonien]

When going into it they said this is the Lions, not Wales so Wales past performance vs SH should be ignored. Now it's won it's suddenly a Wales win and not a Lions win. It's Welsh players who will feel good, Welsh players who won it, Wales Wales Wales. Kindly Welsh people decide if this was a Liosn tour or a Welsh tour, don't pick and choose.

Not at all. But you can't ignore that all the players involved will have gained a healthy amount of confidence from that final test in particular. To beat an Aussie side that convincingly, regardless of their current state will instil a a sense that they can go out and do it again for their own nations. The fact that a healthy amount of the Welsh side were involved bodes well for Wales' chances against them in future, especially as there appeared to be some sort of mental block in the recent past that has stopped them getting those wins against Aus.

The Lions is still 100% a scratch side, made up from players of the four nations, but what happens on tour will have a bearing on those players involved. If the Lions had lost the series, I'd be saying the exact opposite, in that the Welsh players involved still have a problem getting over the finishing line against Aus.

This isn't an attempt to lay complete praise on the Welsh players for the Lions victory, you are the one reading that into what I said.

 

[psychic duck]

Think to put it to bed - Wales simply take credit and feel like they have the win. The majority of the other 3 are happy the series is won but have a sour taste about it as it didn't feel like a Lions series win and the team for last test was to heavy with 1 nation with some calls bias that it didn't have that Lions feel or style to it

3 of the past 5 tours had more English than the 11 Welsh in the 23 this year.

 

[Aristodemus]

To be fair for quite a while England were much stronger than Ireland and Wales. As it stands right now and pretty much since the 03 WC all three nations are and have been similar standards. For example this year Ireland beat Wales, England beat Ireland and Wales beat England. You could equally name a Lions side with ten players from any of the nations that should crush the Australian side we just played. Nobody wants the Lions shirt to not be on merit though, if Wales or Ireland had ten players I thought earned the shirt I would not complain in the slightest. But I don't, not this Wales side anyway.
Eng: Corbs, Youngs, Cole, Launchbury, Robshaw, Morgan, Youngs, Tuilagi, Wade, Foden.
Ire: Healy, Best, POC, SOB, Heaslip, Murray, Sexton, BOD, Bowe, Kearney.

These would be biased teams I know and not what I would want but given the opportunity to have game time in a Lions shirt who is to say without a little misfortune they could have all played the final test.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Not at all. But you can't ignore that all the players involved will have gained a healthy amount of confidence from that final test in particular. To beat an Aussie side that convincingly, regardless of their current state will instil a a sense that they can go out and do it again for their own nations. The fact that a healthy amount of the Welsh side were involved bodes well for Wales' chances against them in future, especially as there appeared to be some sort of mental block in the recent past that has stopped them getting those wins against Aus.

The Lions is still 100% a scratch side, made up from players of the four nations, but what happens on tour will have a bearing on those players involved. If the Lions had lost the series, I'd be saying the exact opposite, in that the Welsh players involved still have a problem getting over the finishing line against Aus.

This isn't an attempt to lay complete praise on the Welsh players for the Lions victory, you are the one reading that into what I said.

I don't think confidence is something the Welsh side have ever lacked. They are a great team with great players and though I wouldn't call them world beaters, there is definitely the potential there. The trouble with Wales is they are the exact opposite of England. England tend to have a relatively consistant win:lose ratio throughout and so bumble along at "good" level with a few dips and peaks but nothing too significant. Wales is a team the rapidly fluctuates between total dominance and winning absolutely nothing. This is more a maturity thing than a confidence thing. As the young players in the Welsh squad mature then they will become more consistent and Welsh rugby should look very bright by the time of the next world cup. I just hope the English young bloods aren't playing catchup at that point. Maturity will turn those close losses into close wins.

I think the biggest boost for the Welsh players would be the Farrel treatment. In England he was the poster boy and it was going to his head. He thought he was untouchable. Now in the Lions he wasn't the favourite, he was told to sit on the side. I think a few of the Welsh players having the same treatment and still being in the winning team will do them a lot of good. Not saying they are arrogant like Farrel but young players need to be taken down a peg or two at times and shown they are not yet indespisible.