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Summer tours - England

Has Ted Hill been tearing it up for Worcester?
I don't watch them so no clue.

I think Tom Willis would be a interesting 6 to look at.


You know who is also a 6 and EQP
jono-ross.jpg
 
Has Ted Hill been tearing it up for Worcester?
I don't watch them so no clue.

I think Tom Willis would be a interesting 6 to look at.


You know who is also a 6 and EQP
jono-ross.jpg
I'm probably a bit biased but i would say yeah, Ted Hill is smashing it. Consistently one of our best players (I appreciate being Worcester that's not hard), Strong, pacy, smashing tackler.

T Willis is great across the BR.

Didn't realise Ross was EQP
 
Sorry Hooker, i think George has to go as a lock (which is what he is) ...not a back rower.
I'm confused, I thought people were saying he was more back row than lock, but either way my thoughts stand. And if you want to have a look at someone who covers both then surely Isiekwe is next in line. Unless the world splits from axis Hill and Ewels will both be available in the summer.
 
People say which is what he is.
But he's not played a minute of Prem rugby at lock yet.
Even when he came on for a lock, Liebenberg shifted into the second row.

England supporters have a thing against locks going to 6.
Rightly so since Lawes etc.

But one of the best 6's in World rugby started as a lock.
I'm biased because I think England would've been much better off if Itoje got moved to blindside at U20's/early career level though.
 
People say which is what he is.
But he's not played a minute of Prem rugby at lock yet.
Even when he came on for a lock, Liebenberg shifted into the second row.

England supporters have a thing against locks going to 6.
Rightly so since Lawes etc.

But one of the best 6's in World rugby started as a lock.
I'm biased because I think England would've been much better off if Itoje got moved to blindside at U20's/early career level though.
Wow, I thought I was on my own on that one!
 
Yes i think it would have been great if Itoje had been a 6...however unfortunately he is not.

Many mobile locks start out at 6...Launchbury and Kruis played a lot at 6 in their early years, but as with them..I think Martin should focus on that engine room. We have loads of great back row options coming through (Ted HIll being the primary big physical 6 in most peoples thoughts)....but we need some young strong physical, aggressive locks coming through aswell.
 
Longshot call, BUT.....
Dan Kelly at 12.
Theres a lot of young potential ....young Quins centre Luke Northmore has put in a few nice performances.

I'd like to see:

12 Devoto
13 Lawrence
and
12 Lawrence
13 Odogwu

at some stage on the tour.

People are suggesting O'Connor of Bristol aswell...thoughts?
 
Yes i think it would have been great if Itoje had been a 6...however unfortunately he is not.

Many mobile locks start out at 6...Launchbury and Kruis played a lot at 6 in their early years, but as with them..I think Martin should focus on that engine room. We have loads of great back row options coming through (Ted HIll being the primary big physical 6 in most peoples thoughts)....but we need some young strong physical, aggressive locks coming through aswell.
If he can play both well, he should be tried in both to see which suits him best at senior level, which may not be the same as school / junior level.

You're absolutely right about the need for new locks to emerge though. We've been spoiled with the fab 4 for a while, but the next generation hasn't been so great. Typical bloody Jones - boom or bust :)
 
A random thought

Most of Eddie's ball carriers are big forwards, in terms of "gain line" style players, and has notoriously avoided in recent times having a physical player in the backs... Maybe if he has some stronger centres, whether it be Piers O'Conor, and a Cokanasiga type wing, all of a sudden the ability for a mobile dynamic 8 like Simmonds might be a lot more available for what EJ seems to like in his teams. With the backline so underpowered he struggles, and OL doesnt really seem the answer for the problem from what I've seen
 
A random thought

Most of Eddie's ball carriers are big forwards, in terms of "gain line" style players, and has notoriously avoided in recent times having a physical player in the backs... Maybe if he has some stronger centres, whether it be Piers O'Conor, and a Cokanasiga type wing, all of a sudden the ability for a mobile dynamic 8 like Simmonds might be a lot more available for what EJ seems to like in his teams. With the backline so underpowered he struggles, and OL doesnt really seem the answer for the problem from what I've seen
The issue is every time EJ did play big backs (Tuilagi and Coka), he changed absolutely nothing in the forwards. Everything indicates to EJ big backs are there to supplement his chosen big forwards, not replace them.
 
I'm probably a bit biased but i would say yeah, Ted Hill is smashing it. Consistently one of our best players (I appreciate being Worcester that's not hard), Strong, pacy, smashing tackler.

T Willis is great across the BR.

Didn't realise Ross was EQP
See I'd say Ted's been a bit quieter this season. Still good, but not as obviously great as he was last season. I'm still a big fan, I just wouldn't have said his form has been quite as good recently.

I'm going to call it early and say Tom Willis will be starting 8 before long. I genuinely think he has all the goods to be a top class 8.

Not interested in Ross at all ...

As I see it, the current back row pecking order for Eddie is something like this:

6. T. Curry* / Wilson / Lawes / Martin / Hill
7. Underhill / Earl / Ludlam
8. B. Vunipola / move Curry or Wilson

I'd imagine Barbeary is in the mix somewhere too (6 or 8).

*assuming Curry and Underhill are the starting combination on the flanks

Ignoring injuries, I would have:

6. T. Curry / J. Willis / Hill / Wilson / Barbeary / Martin
7. Underhill / Earl / B. Curry / Evans / Ludlam
8. A. Dombrandt / S. Simmonds / B. Vunipola / T. Willis

I've been hesitant on Dombrandt at 8 (mostly because I thought he wasn't ready), but he's putting in good performances more or less every week now and has definitely upped his work rate. I still think Curry and Underhill is our best combination on the flanks and IMO, Dombrandt is a better foil for that than Simmonds. Tom Willis is coming up fast on the rails though and I think he could leapfrog a few.
 
I think Lawes is ahead of Wilson, for Eddie
Wilson only came back in at 6 vs Wales(?) because Lawes got injured

The Ross thing was pretty obviously a joke :p
He's slowly being phased out of the Sale side, even, and once B Curry is back he'll likely take over the captaincy from him
 
Guardian speculating both Smith and Joe Simmonds are being earmarked by Eddie to start for England in the summer.

Also want to note - why not take Josh Hodge? We've taken players and capped them for less under Eddie and that was an absolute wonder try he scored yesterday. Burning May and Zammit for pace as a big bloke is no mean feat, and he appears to love tackling and is a good one too.
 
I've got nothing against Hodge - don't think EJ does either (wasn't he an apprentice at some point? Though that's probably a black mark against his name...)

From what I've seen, at senior level, Steward and Parton have taken to it better - but they all have very high ceilings, slightly different skillsets, and any of the three going on tour would be a huge plus, really.
Do think Hodge probably needs a few big dinners in him to make it at international level, though - not saying bulk up like the RFU forced Tait to, but he's very lightweight and while he's not afraid of contact at all I've seen him get bowled over before - LRZ is almost 2st heavier, for example. Only natural as a youngster that he'll fill out a bit more over time, though

Edit: Didn't realise Parton was 23! I thought he was like 20
 
Thing is while there are great young players you also need experience and a balanced team. Summer tour is great for seeing who has potential and if they can show they are world class like Curry for example then age shouldn't matter. However, world class for me means performing at a high level consistently week in week out. There are always highlight reel players or players who have a great game now and again, but the best do it consistently every time.

Looking at the 6N's squad this year and thinking about 2023 and who might be there this is how I see it.

1: Mako's scrummaging has been shown up over the last 2 years since the world cup and he hasn't had a massive impact in the loose either. he will be 32 at the next WC and tbh I think he needs to find some form or you can't justify his selection. Genge has been very hot and cold and too inconsistent to be a reliable starter. Obano is tipped for big things, but it's definitely an area of concern. Mako shouldn't be anywhere near the summer tour and I'd start Obano to give him plenty of game time with Genge coming off the bench. For 2023 you could have any of these 3 depending on form/injuries. I think it will be too soon for Rodd. West might be another option though if he continues to play in form.
Summer - Obano/Genge
2023 - Obano/Genge/Mako (depending on form)

2: George in form is one of the best and LCD was one of the better players this tournament imo. This is an area that isn't of major concern, especially with Dunn in the wings and potentially Barbeary if he does actually play at 2. Summer maybe LCD and Dunn as I reckon George will go Lions. For 2023 it will still probably be George and LCD, though I feel Dunn deserves more chances.
Summer - LCD/Dunn
2023 - LCD/George

3: Sinckler in form is fantastic and Stuart has looked good coming off the bench. Only question for the summer if Sinckler is on Lions duty is who might be 3rd in line. Williams seemed to be, but Jones could well go for some younger players who have been mentioned. For 2023 barring injuries it will probably be Sinckler and Stuart.
Summer - Stuart + ??? (take your pick of young TH's)
2023 - Sinckler/Stuart

4&5: Tricky here as this selection needs a good balance. Itoje is no.1, though needs to give away less penalties. Hill had some good moments, but also some daft ones as well. Ewels look good, but nothing special. Launchbury & Lawes were pretty much injured for most of it and when Lawes wasn't he played 6. Kruis off in Japan. Martin and Ribbans also around the squad. Kruis and Lawes will be 33 & 34 in 2023 respectively, which for me is on the limit unless they are playing truly amazing rugby. For the summer I think launchbury and Ewels potentially with Hill/Ribbans/Isiekwe in the squad too. This is one area I think needs tidying up on selections as while there are plenty of options, apart from Itoje, it has been too inconsistent.
Summer - Launchbury/Ewels/Hill/Ribbans or Isiekwe
2023- Itoje/Launchbury/Ewels/ ? (this one is very open and dependent on too many factors)

6&7: Assuming Curry is with the Lions and potentially Underhill then who else should get a look in? Earl has looked good when he's come on, Jack Willis when fit again is a must. Hill has good potential. Barbeary can play here. Tom Willis is also an option. Ben Curry. Wilson, though for me he didn't look as good as he did before the WC. Evans for Harlequins. Underhill obviously and also Ludlum has been playing well. That's 11 into 2 really, though a few could also play 8 too. For the summer with Willis out then I'd like to see Ben Curry if fit with Earl. I'll also go Evans as back up as we know what Ludlum and Wilson can do and Barbeary and Willis might be better suited to 8. Hill for me is not quite up at the races. For 2023 we will have at least one curry and probably underhill, so then it's just who will be best to support.
Summer - B.Curry/Earl/Evans
2023 - T/B.Curry/Underhill/J.Willis/Earl

8: Billy just looks unfit and even his best has only been average to good this tournament. This is one of the key positions that needs replacing. Dombrandt and Simmonds have been tearing it up in the Prem. Mercer too, but he's off the France. T.Willis and Barbeary also looking good. For the summer I'd go Dombrandt and Simmonds. However potentially Barbeary for 2023 if he keeps going in the direction he is.
Summer - Dombrandt/Simmonds
2023 - Dombrandt/Simmonds/Barbeary

9: Another area that needs sorting. Youngs is Youngs, but we need something more. Robson didn't really take his chance when he got it, but wasn't given much chance either. I'd like to see Spencer and Randall for the summer as I think it would be good to see what they can do, then have another think for the Autumn based on performances. For 2023 I'd like Robson/Spencer/Randall, but I'm sure Youngs will find his way in. Too soon for JvP.
Summer - Spencer/Randall
2023 - Robson/Spencer/Randall

10: Yet another area that is an issue. Ford was an improvement on Farrell, but either he's not brave enough to stand up to Eddie or he's not confident enough against different opposition. Farrell was just crap. Smith and Simmonds need to be given a shot simple as that. I'd maybe have Ford on tour though for experience.
Summer - Ford/Smith
2023 - Smith/Simmonds

12&13: Issues again as there isn't a whole lot of talent for 12. Eddie has butchered this area allowing players to be capped by other countries. Farrell was crap, Lawrence not really given a chance. Slade looked good in attack, but poor defensively. Marchant and Odogwu in the squad but not used properly. I'd go Lawrence, Piers O'Conor, Marchant and Slade for the summer tour. Slade again provides experience and continuity. Northmore though could be in contention. No idea for 2023, depends if Farrell is dropped tbh.
Summer: Lawrence/O'Conor/Marchant/Slade
2023: No idea, need others to be given time to prove themselves. Slade is the only player currently who I think should definitely be there.

11&14: Watson looked great, May good, but not his best. No one else got a look in. For the summer there are some good young wings who could come through. Odogwu, Loader, Hassell-Collins, Thorley. Also Nowell if fit, McConnochie and Cokanasiga. For the summer I'd go with Hassell-Collins and Odogwu with McConnochie. For 2023 I think Watson and May hold the shirts, but form could play a part.
Summer - McConnochie/Hassell-Collins/Odogwu
2023 - Watson/May/McConnochie

15: Last big area. Daly is not a 15. Malins had some good moments, but didn't do enough to take the shirt. De Glanville, Steward, Hodge all looking good. Summer I'd take Malins and then one of the young 3. Tough to pick as they all look good. However I think Steward has been the most consistent.
Summer - Malins/Steward
2023 - Malins/one of the young 3

For me 2,3,4,5,6,7,11&14 have experience and depth enough that the summer tour should only be really about identifying backups and cementing those positions. 1,8,9,10,12,13 & 15 all need sorting and for me are areas of concern.
 

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