Summer tours - England

[BPM]

Assuming a 32 man squad, I'd go for:

1. Obano / West
2. Dunn / Capon
3. Stuart / Heyes
4. Ewels / Isiekwe / Martin
5. Launchbury (capt) / Ribbans
6. T. Hill / Barbeary*
7. Earl / Ludlam / Evans**
8. Dombrandt / S. Simmonds
9. Randall / Mitchell
10. Smith / J. Simmonds
11. Thorley / Haskell-Collins
12. O'Conor / Devoto
13. Marchant / Lawrence
14. Odogwu / David
15. Malins / Steward

*can't really consider him as a hooker until he's playing there for Wasps

**I'd have gone with Ben Curry but while he's been injured, Evans has been conspicuously brilliant for Quins

Others I'd happily consider:

Tom Willis
Jamie Blamire
Luke Northmore
Adam Radwan

Blamire and Northmore have been flying under the radar but are quietly establishing themselves as very good Premiership players IMO. Same goes for Nick David.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

So there in you have one dilemma. Do you choose an attacking playmaker at 15...or the brick wall rock at the back?

No dilemma that I can see.

 

[Which Tyler]

*can't really consider him as a hooker until he's playing there for Wasps

I happily cheated and took him as 3rd hooker, and left the back row possibly under-resourced.
Take him on tour, run the rule over him in training and probably give him the 20 shirt against Scotland, and the 16 against USA and Canada, when his hooking basics really won't matter.

So there in you have one dilemma. Do you choose an attacking playmaker at 15...or the brick wall rock at the back?

Both options work so long as each can do the other to an internationally competent degree.
Assuming that then I'd rather have an extra 10% on playmaking as it offers you greater flexibility (I also think it's the way the game is heading).
Ultimately, if those are your options, with equal ceilings, you go for the one you've got backup for without changing your structures

 

[TRF_Olyy]

It's not a computer game where the stats are min/maxed
Just because you're a good attacking 15 doesn't mean you're a 0/10 defender, and vice versa

Steward looks good at all aspects of 15 play, from what I've seen. He's not the 2nd coming of Billy Whizz on attack but...so? He's still plenty quick and runs good lines

 

[BPM]

I've said this before, but given the majority of our centres are on the smaller side, I have a lot of time for the idea of a big unit like Steward hitting lines in midfield at pace.

Take him on tour, run the rule over him in training and probably give him the 20 shirt against Scotland, and the 16 against USA and Canada, when his hooking basics really won't matter.

Yes. Injury permitting, Dunn could even go 80 if needed which opens the possibility of Barbeary covering hooker but actually coming on in the back row. Imagine bringing Simmonds and Barbeary off the bench to play in the back row against a tired USA or Canada side ...

 

[Which Tyler]

It's not a computer game where the stats are min/maxed
Just because you're a good attacking 15 doesn't mean you're a 0/10 defender, and vice versa

Steward looks good at all aspects of 15 play, from what I've seen. He's not the 2nd coming of Billy Whizz on attack but...so? He's still plenty quick and runs good lines

Nobody's saying otherwise we they?
Equally, Malins and DeGlanville look very good at all aspects of 15 play, whilst not being the second coming of... Lewsey?.
Being very good and rounded given for anyone to be part of this discussion.

It's perfectly possible to ackowledge different strengths from different players without thinking it's "a computer game where the stats are min/maxed". Though I appreciate that this board has engaged full-hyperbole mode for the last week or two

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Nobody's saying otherwise we they?

Was aimed more at Geordiefalcon asking if we go for an attacker/playmaker or a defender at the back, when we don't really have to make that decision as most options do both to a very high standard

Daly is really the only option at the back who would make me sweat when the opposition is on attack

Imagine bringing Simmonds and Barbeary off the bench to play in the back row against a tired USA or Canada side ...

There's probably something in the Geneva convention to forbid that tbh

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Hes pretty much made the Tigers 15 spot his own. An absolute rock under the high ball and at the back full stop. Attack wise he can improve but looks to have a decent offload already.

So there in you have one dilemma. Do you choose an attacking playmaker at 15...or the brick wall rock at the back?

Rock, every time.

 

[Which Tyler]

Imagine bringing Simmonds and Barbeary off the bench to play in the back row against a tired USA or Canada side ...

Add Lawes on the bench covering 5&6...

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Rock, every time.

Yep.

Olyy's right that it's not a black and white either / or. It never is.

But this is the same question as whether you want a handling or scrummaging prop.

I regard the defensive / ariel solidity for a FB and scrummaging for a prop as the absolute prerequisites for those positions. As we've seen, compromise those and it will cost points / penalties / sin binnings. Once you've found players with those abilities then you look at what else they bring / how they fit into patterns.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Lots of names being thrown around in the press but it seems the big emphasis will be trying new blood at 9 and 10.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I hate saying this but in hindsight I miss having a Brown in the England squad same with Hartley.


See Evans tops the turnovers in the league with 24 in 11 games
Which was on par with Jack Willis incredible haul last season of 24 turnovers in 11 games.

Evans is also 4th in tackles made with 157.

Shame he just doesn't have the same grunt as players like Curry and Willias etc.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yeah, I rate Evans really highly as well

I've not listened to it but EJ did a podcast/interview with Hartley and namedropped players he's looking to try:
Charlie Atkinson, Marcus Smith, Finn Smith, and Joe Simmonds
I can't imagine we'll take 4 flyhalves to America, but if we took M.Smith and one of the others then that'd be brill

Also namedropped George Martin, so I imagine he'll be a starter over the summer

 

[Geordie]

Was aimed more at Geordiefalcon asking if we go for an attacker/playmaker or a defender at the back, when we don't really have to make that decision as most options do both to a very high standard

Daly is really the only option at the back who would make me sweat when the opposition is on attack


There's probably something in the Geneva convention to forbid that tbh

I appreciate it isnt a computer game, but clearly Jones has gone for a playmaking style in Daly in the hope that his defensive frailties can be fixed. That hasnt been achieved.

Ive made note that Steward is a work in progress in attack but already has a good offloading game.

I still think you need to alter your game slightly depending on which "type " of player you pick at the back.

 

[BPM]

I hate saying this but in hindsight I miss having a Brown in the England squad same with Hartley.


See Evans tops the turnovers in the league with 24 in 11 games
Which was on par with Jack Willis incredible haul last season of 24 turnovers in 11 games.

Evans is also 4th in tackles made with 157.

Shame he just doesn't have the same grunt as players like Curry and Willias etc.

Hence why I described him as 'conspicuously brilliant'.

He has the skill level to be a test player, but as you say, he is lacking on the size front.

On the other hand, not being massive isn't impacting the quality of his involvements. The stats you've highlighted underline his defensive qualities but he has good hands and a linking game that's really contributed to Quins attack too. He's very much missed when not available.

I don't see him fitting in to an Eddie Jones team TBH, but he was called up right at the beginning of Eddie's reign. Stranger things have happened.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Yeah, I rate Evans really highly as well

I've not listened to it but EJ did a podcast/interview with Hartley and namedropped players he's looking to try:
Charlie Atkinson, Marcus Smith, Finn Smith, and Joe Simmonds
I can't imagine we'll take 4 flyhalves to America, but if we took M.Smith and one of the others then that'd be brill

Also namedropped George Martin, so I imagine he'll be a starter over the summer

Smith makes Martin looks experienced and Atkinson is another teenager with less than 10 senior matches under his belt.

I really hope they were being name checked as future talents not contenders for the summer? They are not talents for now and probably unlikely to be for the next RWC either. They shouldn't be near a senior squad yet, even a developmental one. Let them develop at their own pace and nail down starting positions at their clubs before thinking of anything else. At 10 we've got Smith and Simmonds to have a proper look at, quite apart from the long term incumbents.

Barbeary's only 20 with scarcely more experience. Difference being he's been tearing up the premiership and already looks like he can play at a higher level. Absolutely worth a spot in the summer. Similarly Steward who's a club regular and already looks thoroughly accomplished at that level.

 

[Geordie]

Marcus Smith and Joe Simmonds should be the tour fly halves if it goes ahead.
Id' be happy with George Martin going as a starter. Yes he's inexperienced, but hes a big unit and aggressive, so he'll have no issues physically. It would be good to give him a few 80 mins from the games.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

.

I'd be happy with George Martin going as a starter. Yes he's inexperienced, but hes a big unit and aggressive, so he'll have no issues physically. It would be good to give him a few 80 mins from the games.

I'll raise you a Ted Hill.

Jones record with v young players / apprentices is largely poor. Martin plays in a position of strength, there's no need to fast track him. If he's got the potential many think, that will out soon enough. He might tour and it all goes well, but if it doesn't it could be a real setback, certainly under Jones regime.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

During the American tour it might well not be a position of strength

 

[Geordie]

.

I'll raise you a Ted Hill.

Jones record with v young players / apprentices is largely poor. Martin plays in a position of strength, there's no need to fast track him. If he's got the potential many think, that will out soon enough. He might tour and it all goes well, but if it doesn't it could be a real setback, certainly under Jones regime.

Ah no need to raise it...massive fan of hill. Not sure why he hasnt been more involved. He must go on the tour if it goes ahead...

4.
5. George Martin
6 Ted HIll
7 B. Curry / Evans
8 Dombrandt

Edit:
Sorry Hooker, i think George has to go as a lock (which is what he is) ...not a back rower.