Steffon Armitage wanting to play for France.?!

[nickdnz]

I think the difference Ewis between your understanding of international rugby, and everyone elses, is that international rugby isn't inherantly a buisness. Many more people play international rugby that aren't even professional athletes. It exists on values that aren't about money, and the only point of it is if, by and large, people feel it's above professionalism.

If anyone doesn't feel strongly enough to play for their country that they would be equally happy playing for another, then they really don't have any buisness playing for their country over another player whom would find no greater honour. There is no inherant reason why we should assume international rugby be run as a buisness, only there are many with money who would prefer it run that way.

 

[goodNumber10]

Do people honestly believe players play international rugby purely because of patriotism?

I don't, maybe it comes into it a little but I think the overall driving factor in it is because they want to play Rugby at the highest level they can, and that is International Rugby - i think most of it comes down to little more than that. That's why we see so many NZ players jump ship to other countries on the GP rule or residency it's about getting to the best level they can.

Sports men are driven selfish individuals (and they have to be) i think they mainly go where the recognition is.

On a personal level i can't stand this rule, but they are so desperate to get into the olympics they'd have sold their first born for a slot.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Agree with you GN10 I suppose as a sportsman you want to prove yourself against the best in the world in anything, and in some countries that is extremely hard to do.

 

[Geordie]

I think its utterly farsical that he could swap to France...and makes a mockery of international rugby.

Its no different to Henry Paul, Vainikolo etc swapping to England.

As for the likes fo Sivivatu, Rokococo etc wanting to play for Fiji (aside from Fiji having better wingers now) again...they are having their cake and eating eat. Playing for the AB's then getting the option to then play for their country...its just not on.

Maybe if they all elected to play for Fiji or Samoa in the first place their teams would be alot more competitive.

 

[nickdnz]

I think its utterly farsical that he could swap to France...and makes a mockery of international rugby.

Its no different to Henry Paul, Vainikolo etc swapping to England.

As for the likes fo Sivivatu, Rokococo etc wanting to play for Fiji (aside from Fiji having better wingers now) again...they are having their cake and eating eat. Playing for the AB's then getting the option to then play for their country...its just not on.

Maybe if they all elected to play for Fiji or Samoa in the first place their teams would be alot more competitive.

To be fair - the Rokocoko and Sivivatu swapping is just speculation. Neither have said they'd swap, although other players have. Agree with the rest of it though. At least Vainikolo and Paul only played for England in one sport.

 

[Geordie]

Ah yes i appreciate the Sivivatu, Rokococo is just hypothetical at the moment...but the fact that it could happen is what concerns me.

But Vainikolo and Paul should never have been allowed to swap just like Brad Thorn should not have been allowed.

Whilst they may be classed as two different codes rugby league and union are too close to be different sports and if you represent a country in one...you should have to represent that side in union...very simple.

 

[Big Ewis]

"Playing for your country" is a notion we all understand and all find noble. Peat you say I answer questions that haven't been raised but a lot of you reply to me with things I haven't contested. But the Armitage case isn't that simple. I think some overestimate his Englishness and underestimate his attachment to France, and there's no problem with being mixed, "shared", and have shared feelings for a couple of places. But that's been discussed, I'm cool with Armitage playing for France, nobody else is. That's that.

Now about the inherEnt willingness to play for your country and all that, I think it's clear (as I've also touched on, and GN10 after me also) a pro athlete just wants to insure he plays in the best setting. Again, you look at guys like Manu Tuilagi, all the Fijians/Tongans who could've played for their respective countries but chose NZ, I don't think they're turncoats at all because they had enough to do with NZ to be considered legit NZ'ers (sports wise) and besides, chose to become AB.

Armitage becoming a French player isn't like Owen Farrell becoming French out of the blue or Fofana turning English all of a sudden. Those would be condemnable certainly. But *everything I've said about the Armitages*, and yadi yada, has a French side, has played for France before AND after England, has ties there, speaks the language fluently...it's not an anodyne, anonymous random thing; there's reason and purpose behind it.

Of course I'd have a pb with Fofana/Fritz/FTD/Kayser joining England or Farrell/Wood/Burrell/Twelvetrees joining France. That would be pure nonsense. Steffon Armitage isn't.

The only thing I can tell you if you're *that* against this is, make sure (somehow...) there isn't ever again an ambiguous player like Steffon.A who's got such a complex identity, is shared betw. two, and has played extensively within two separate territories.
He's played 5 caps for England, enjoyed it, played with all his heart. Then he returned to France and became a Toulonais whole-heartedly...

Anyways, I hope it doesn't happen because it would become such a big deal it's just not worth it, I was just debating the theory of it on here...

Off topic now (but really more importantly): he looks like a fantastic, fantastic guy. Always smiling, smarter than ppl think, extremely positive and gives it his all.

 

[ratsapprentice]

That would all be fine IF HE HADN'T ALREADY WON ENGLAND CAPS.

No-one is saying some people do not have a complex sense of national identity. But once you make your choice, that's it.

If he never won any England caps and turned out for France then no-one would give a ****.

 

[goodNumber10]

That would all be fine IF HE HADN'T ALREADY WON ENGLAND CAPS.

No-one is saying some people do not have a complex sense of national identity. But once you make your choice, that's it.

If he never won any England caps and turned out for France then no-one would give a ****.

haha! i bet your face was purple as you typed that...

i think people are misunderstanding Ewis on this, i don't think he's saying it's ok, i think what he's saying is that Armitage shouldn't feel any guilt about exploiting the system that is in place, and that people waving the patriot card are a little misguided if they think people can only identify with one country and should never be driven to play for anyone else.

 

[Big Ewis]

haha! i bet your face was purple as you typed that...

i think people are misunderstanding Ewis on this, i don't think he's saying it's ok, i think what he's saying is that Armitage shouldn't feel any guilt about exploiting the system that is in place, and that people waving the patriot card are a little misguided if they think people can only identify with one country and should never be driven to play for anyone else.

nooooooooooo, ppl neeeeever do that here !................ nooooooooooo....
And yes lol, rats seemed especially agitated on that one. He's the most placid poster there is, but it's interesting how he'll turn up when it comes to ENGLAND.

Well we're just throwing feces back at each other like small monkeys here. You all say "that'd be fine had he not played for England" and I say "yeh but I've addressed that, in long developed paragraphs in fact. That doesn't mean all that much if you consider today's platform and who he is as an athlete and as a person".

Anyways...again hope it doesn't happen. And yes GN10, I think whether we're right or wrong about this, most certainly Olyy and rats and maybe others on this thread need to be less nation-biased at least and tone down on the whole nationalism/patriotism thing. I get what you're saying, but surely this isn't such a dramatic topic to get such reactions with caps locks, bolded passages, direct insults against me or stubbornly throwing the same stuff back at me aggressively.
You think it's B.S. he should play for France, mkay, your opinion, no problem, I'm here to read them. But nobody died here and no country's been assaulted and what not, you'd think this is the Gaza strip thread from a distance

 

[ratsapprentice]

You all say "that'd be fine had he not played for England" and I say "yeh but I've addressed that, in long developed paragraphs in fact. That doesn't mean all that much if you consider today's platform and who he is as an athlete and as a person".

You clearly don't understand the point I'm making if you think that is at all relevant.

I put that bit in bold so that you could focus on it - but alas, you keep bringing up extraneous issues like where he lives/his identity/professionalism.

 

[Geordie]

I think we all appreciate that some players have nationality uncertainties due to parental migration..ie Steffon was born in Trinidad, spent some time there before moving to France, and moving to England at around 16 i believe (correct me if im wrong)

So he possibly does have some loyalties to France...but the problem is he had a choice. He had to chose between England and France.

He chose England and has caps for them. To then turn around a few years later and say he wants to play for France is where most people have a problem. He may want to but he should not be allowed. You should not be allowed to just switch nationalities at the drop of a hat.

The whole residency, elligability laws are all a bit crazy in rugby...so this new Olympic thing doesn help.

The other thing is ask is....will the IRB be monitoring who is selected for the 7's teams.

I ask because 7's have their own specialised players. If we suddenly start seeing Steffon Armitage on the 7's pitch even just playing for a minute...then the eyebrows will surely be raised.
They'll be raised even more if say props start appearing....hypothetically if John Afoa (was maybe Samoan) and he was suddenly wheeled out on to the 7's pitch for Samoa...you would have to ask questions.

 

[Big Ewis]

He chose England and has caps for them. To then turn around a few years later and say he wants to play for France is where most people have a problem. He may want to but he should not be allowed. You should not be allowed to just switch nationalities at the drop of a hat.

The whole residency, elligability laws are all a bit crazy in rugby...so this new Olympic thing doesn help.

I agree. Hopefully guys don't just start switching countries like socks, and this doesn't give a green light to that. That indeed would be a negative addition to World Rugby. But his situation is quite unique, and everything I've said applies to his case isolated from anything else around it (which it may cause, or what not), and in theory.

You clearly don't understand the point I'm making if you think that is at all relevant.

I put that bit in bold so that you could focus on it - but alas, you keep bringing up extraneous issues like where he lives/his identity/professionalism.

Ah, your old self again here ! Well I'm just posting my thoughts on this thread's topic, discussing...and the points that are being made here are simple enough for no one to get confused. I hear you, I hear you...I just say other things lol.

 

[Peat]

You all say "that'd be fine had he not played for England" and I say "yeh but I've addressed that, in long developed paragraphs in fact. That doesn't mean all that much if you consider today's platform and who he is as an athlete and as a person".

You haven't. You may think you have, but you haven't. That's why the same things are being said again and again. And that's all I can be bothered to contribute to the debate as you clearly don't get what people are saying.

edit: If you hear what other people are saying but won't address the points they are making in your post, maybe don't post in direct reply to them, as its confusing and irritating.

 

[Geordie]

I agree. Hopefully guys don't just start switching countries like socks, and this doesn't give a green light to that. That indeed would be a negative addition to World Rugby. But his situation is quite unique, and everything I've said applies to his case isolated from anything else around it (which it may cause, or what not), and in theory.

Can you explain how his situation is unique Ewis?

Surely there are loads of players who could do this...indeed it could open the floodgates.

Hypothetically....and i appreciate not all players would be wanted...

Sivivatu, Tuquiri, Rokococo to Fiji
Shane Geraghty to Ireland
Matt Banahan to Guernsey...or maybe he could qualify for france aswell.
Simon Shaw could play for Kenya (i think he was born there)

Ok im going a bit over the top....however I dont see Steffon being a unique one here...and the whole situation is going to have to be monitored so closely.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't buy this whole "poor steffon and his confused allegiances" line.
He's lived in England longer than France, he got his big break here, he's played international for England at both XVs and 7s levels, and has an English parent.
He's doing this because he wants to play internationally, not because he's suddenly decided he's French.

The other thing is ask is....will the IRB be monitoring who is selected for the 7's teams.

I ask because 7's have their own specialised players. If we suddenly start seeing Steffon Armitage on the 7's pitch even just playing for a minute...then the eyebrows will surely be raised.
They'll be raised even more if say props start appearing....hypothetically if John Afoa (was maybe Samoan) and he was suddenly wheeled out on to the 7's pitch for Samoa...you would have to ask questions.

Steffon has played 7s for England, so it wouldn't be that unusual for him to run out on the circuit again - he played as recently as 2011 for England 7s at the Edinburgh and London legs (but he was crap).

Do agree with what you're saying though - having non-7s players run out for a few minutes every round is going to cheapen this years Sevens Series.

 

[Big Ewis]

ah whatever Peat, I'm not posting here to *win an internet debate*. I believe my argumentation stands, but I can't be bothered to return to the whole thing, see where I've answered ppl directly, where I haven't, quote this guy, that guy, try to look convincing and what not...this just isn't interesting and I've passed the age.

Important thing is, hopefully some ppl come on here who don't believe Armitage's potential move is a diplomatic incident, or treason, or wtvr...or ppl who maybe would like to hear opposing arguments to the common position on this, or just downright ppl who like to read Devil's Advocate type posts...

We've talked about it, I've read what others had to say, which I don't think answers a few of the points I've made myself, but I see this is just a perspective problem. One person says things he feels are most relevant, while others reply but don't really address the point in question but feels what he says is more relevant anyways...
Here's the thing: I definitely don't think one can objectively say the Armitage France thing is wrong. Most if not all the replies I've received have been sentiment/principle based. I do agree it may lead to a snowball series of other dubious moves, but I'm only discussing Armitage's case alone, in theory.

Man, could you imagine if an Irish player ever becomes English in a similar operation ? :lol:

 

[ratsapprentice]

I think we all appreciate that some players have nationality uncertainties due to parental migration..ie Steffon was born in Trinidad, spent some time there before moving to France, and moving to England at around 16 i believe (correct me if im wrong)

Born in Trinidad (only lived there for a year or so I believe, moved to England, then live in France from the age of 11 for 5 years.
Moved back to England and joined the LI academy.

 

[Geordie]

Cheers Rats

 

[Geordie]

ah whatever Peat, I'm not posting here to *win an internet debate*. I believe my argumentation stands, but I can't be bothered to return to the whole thing, see where I've answered ppl directly, where I haven't, quote this guy, that guy, try to look convincing and what not...this just isn't interesting and I've passed the age.

Important thing is, hopefully some ppl come on here who don't believe Armitage's potential move is a diplomatic incident, or treason, or wtvr...or ppl who maybe would like to hear opposing arguments to the common position on this, or just downright ppl who like to read Devil's Advocate type posts...

We've talked about it, I've read what others had to say, which I don't think answers a few of the points I've made myself, but I see this is just a perspective problem. One person says things he feels are most relevant, while others reply but don't really address the point in question but feels what he says is more relevant anyways...
Here's the thing: I definitely don't think one can objectively say the Armitage France thing is wrong. Most if not all the replies I've received have been sentiment/principle based. I do agree it may lead to a snowball series of other dubious moves, but I'm only discussing Armitage's case alone, in theory.

Man, could you imagine if an Irish player ever becomes English in a similar operation ? :lol:

Maybe you are...but its still wrong. And this is just the start....it would lead to loads of people doing it....unless of course the IRb stand up and make a point and stop non 7's players being selected.
Even the rugby laws allow nationality changes...its non rugby elements that have led to this potentially being possible...ie The olympics.

You are still not giving me facts to your arguement Ewis...