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Should Robshaw Captain England?

Thomas Waldrom really interests me. From what I've seen he still looks like the best #8 in England by some way (and I would have given him quite a few games in the All Blacks had he stayed). What I find interesting is that many English people think he's a step too far in terms of picking overseas players. My problem with this is, is you either say that no player who was born and played professionally overseas is allowed to play for England, or you pick Waldrom on form. Otherwise it's just a strange double standard based off very little (Riki Flutey seemed just as bad if not worse, having played against and for the B&I Lions)

a) I will admit to what can be percieved as a slight double standard here. I am happy for players who have played professionally overseas who are of English heritage to represent England - except for Waldrom, who didn't even realise he had an English granny when he came over here to try and quality through residency. That lies over my tenuous line in the sand. Riki Flutey lies way over it for its worth.

b) I don't think he's the best English 8, although he's probably not that far off.
 
We've all had the overseas player debate, but my feelings have 'developed' slightly. The UK, and England in particular, has such a strange relationship with the rest of the world that I can fully understand England teams with 'foreign' players - we still are the wealthiest of the Commonwealth nations, and Rugby and Cricket are still very much Empire sports, if you look at who plays them. So it is understandable that England is a magnet for players from around the rugby/ cricket world - and, of course, many of these people make up the 'English diaspora'.

No, I don't like hearing England players interviewed with non-English accents, but then when I'm at work or at Uni or in the street, I interact with countless people who don't have English accents either, and live here permanently. Accent nationalism is becoming a thing of the past.

As far as I'm concerned, the iRB rules are what they are and England would be stupid not to look a gift horse in the mouth. I get very irritated when foreign guys are picked aheaad of English guys when they don't deserve it, like Hape, but in the case of Hartley or Waldrom, then there's no problem at all.
 
Shontayne Hape could have traced his descent back to Hengist and Horsa on his father side's, and King Arthur and William the Conquerer on his mother's, and I've still had issues with him being picked. Because he's really not good.
 
We've all had the overseas player debate, but my feelings have 'developed' slightly. The UK, and England in particular, has such a strange relationship with the rest of the world that I can fully understand England teams with 'foreign' players - we still are the wealthiest of the Commonwealth nations, and Rugby and Cricket are still very much Empire sports, if you look at who plays them. So it is understandable that England is a magnet for players from around the rugby/ cricket world - and, of course, many of these people make up the 'English diaspora'.

No, I don't like hearing England players interviewed with non-English accents, but then when I'm at work or at Uni or in the street, I interact with countless people who don't have English accents either, and live here permanently. Accent nationalism is becoming a thing of the past.

As far as I'm concerned, the iRB rules are what they are and England would be stupid not to look a gift horse in the mouth. I get very irritated when foreign guys are picked aheaad of English guys when they don't deserve it, like Hape, but in the case of Hartley or Waldrom, then there's no problem at all.

I agree completely genius but.....are the IRB rules there to help developing nations? Italy for instance have used (and still do) a good few Kiwis during the time they have tried to settle in the 6N. Japan also have made good use of the residency rules but England have the biggest player base and the richest union so doesn't it feel a bit wrong that we are exploiting something that should be there to help less well off nations?
 
So i expect an expierced core team of players with some added youngsters but there are still a few gaps:

1. Corbisiero - Marler is he ready?
2. Hartley - Webber maybe?
3. Cole - Stevens
4. lawes - Robson, is he more a 4 or 5?
5. Attwood - Where is Kritchner? Didn't he sign for the tigers?
6.Robshaw - Croft
7.Wood - Seymour? Fearns?
8. Waldrum??? Narraway seems to be getting dropped for some reason
9.Youngs - Care - Simpson
10. Flood - ??? Ford, Clegg
11. Sharples Can't think right now
12.Farrell - JTH
13.Tuilangi - Trinder
14. Ashton - Wade needs some tackling lessons
15. Foden - Brown


So some good experience to call on but still a few question marks and a lot of players not tried out.
 
I agree completely genius but.....are the IRB rules there to help developing nations? Italy for instance have used (and still do) a good few Kiwis during the time they have tried to settle in the 6N. Japan also have made good use of the residency rules but England have the biggest player base and the richest union so doesn't it feel a bit wrong that we are exploiting something that should be there to help less well off nations?

Well, it's actually there because there is nothing to say a person who moves to another country can't consider themselves a citizen of that country. Therefore three years of residency is the minimum amount of time to try to stop exploitation. Similarly, people who were born in another country but have parents or grandparents in that country may have a closer affinity for that country than their country of birth (which I generally think is more exploititive, as there was never a period of residency). It has nothing to do with helping smaller nations.

My thoughts are this. An extention of the time period from 3 years to 4 should be implemented, meaning that a player such as Flutey, Hape, Waldrom etc would all have to wait just that little bit longer (and 5 years is certainly a long time in a playing career) and it would mean that every international player would have only another year to officially qualifiy for full residency under that time period (under Persons establishing themselves in business).
 
Well, it's actually there because there is nothing to say a person who moves to another country can't consider themselves a citizen of that country. Therefore three years of residency is the minimum amount of time to try to stop exploitation. Similarly, people who were born in another country but have parents or grandparents in that country may have a closer affinity for that country than their country of birth (which I generally think is more exploititive, as there was never a period of residency). It has nothing to do with helping smaller nations.

My thoughts are this. An extention of the time period from 3 years to 4 should be implemented, meaning that a player such as Flutey, Hape, Waldrom etc would all have to wait just that little bit longer (and 5 years is certainly a long time in a playing career) and it would mean that every international player would have only another year to officially qualifiy for full residency under that time period (under Persons establishing themselves in business).

Well no because Waldrom found out he had an English gran and thats my problem, parents ok no problem with that but qualifying through grand parents takes the **** a bit IMO
 
1. Corbisiero - Marler is he ready?
I don't think Marler is there yet - his scrummaging isn't up to scratch. Definitely have him in the Saxons though. Not sure who else to have as loosehead though, as Sheridan is always crocked (and hopefully will decide to retire from international) and Stevens can't really scrum there
2. Hartley - Webber maybe?
Agree with Webber, that Quins guy (Gray?) has been going well too
3. Cole - Stevens
Yup!
4. lawes - Robson, is he more a 4 or 5?
Yup!
5. Attwood - Where is Kritchner? Didn't he sign for the tigers?
Palmer should be involved here. Kitchener did, stupidly, sign for Tigers - He's currently milling around their "A" squad instead of starting for Worcester
6.Robshaw - Croft
Yup!
7.Wood - Seymour? Fearns?
Fearns isn't a 7, but agree with Wood/Seymour
8. Waldrum??? Narraway seems to be getting dropped for some reason
Narraway is often/always injured, agree in principle though (with Fearns there as an 8 who can play 6 and cover 7 in an emergency)
9.Youngs - Care - Simpson
Yup, though I'd put Care ahead of Youngs atm
10. Flood - ??? Ford, Clegg
Yup!
11. Sharples Can't think right now
Yup! Maybe consider Ojo as well
12.Farrell - JTH
Brad Barritt, Anthony Allen and Billy Twelvetrees should be around as well - Would take all of them over Farrell and JTH
13.Tuilangi - Trinder
Yup!
14. Ashton - Wade needs some tackling lessons
Ironic, considering Ashton can't tackle! :lol: Agree though, keep Ashton around but get Wade involved
15. Foden - Brown
Yup!
 
Nick Wood should come in before Marler at loosehead.

Kitchener probably wouldn't be starting for even Wuss he's been that gash. Think I'd take Garvey and Palmer ahead of Attwood at the moment.

Jamie Gibson needs to be mentioned in the back-row reckoning.

Dickson ahead of Simpson for third SH slot.

Playing Ford at full international would be proper radio rental. His defence isn't up to AP at the moment, nevermind 6N. Farrell and Burns to fight it out behind Flood... or Hodgson if you want someone out of nappies.

Ojo and Monye should both be in the reckoning at the moment. Also, maybe I'm mad, but JSD should be involved.

Wouldn't take Twelvetrees ahead of Farrell or JTH, but agree on Barritt and Allen (when he returns to life).

Lowe ahead of Trinder for me. More physical.
 
Forgot about Nick Wood - he's been very good for Gloucester, their scrum goes to pots without him on the pitch
He's 28, so not that old in Prop terms

Suppose it's hard to say with Kitchener, if he'd have stayed at Worcester he may not have gone to pots, but then again maybe he would have
Either way he shouldn't be involved in the England set up atm, or Saxons for that matter
 
Well, I think the 32 man squad should/ will be something along these lines:

Props:
Corbisiero, Stevens, Cole, Wilson, Wood

Hookers:
Hartley, Gray, Webber

Locks:
Lawes, Attwood, Robson, Skivington

Back Row:
Robshaw, Croft, Wood, Seymour, Waldrom, Narraway

Scrum Halves:
Youngs, Care, Simpson

Fly Halves:
Flood, Farrell, Burns

Centres:
Barritt, Tuilagi, Trinder (we'll see how Allen goes when he's fit, but as JTH & Lowe are injured)

Back 3:
Sharples, Ashton, Foden, Armitage, Brown
 
Fairly off topic, but in terms of England's more distant future I would like to see people like Seb Stegmann, Luke Wallace and Sam Smith in contention for the England squad. All three have proved their worth recently, being rising stars in the premiership.

If you look at the statistics of the Heineken Cup with Stegmann in contrast to Sharples (a likely contender for England) you can see that:

Stegmann has made 17 carries and 108 metres
Sharples has made 21 carries and 83 metres

Stegmann has beaten 3 defenders
Sharples has beaten 3 defenders

Stegmann has made 19 tackles
Sharples has made 17 tackles

In the Aviva Premiership:

Stegmann has played 7 matches and Sharples has played 9

Stegmann has made 43 carries, 356 metres, beaten 10 defenders, missed 4 tackles, 6 offloads and 8 clean breaks.
Sharples has made 46 carries, 322 metres, beaten 9 defenders, missed 6 tackles, made 1 offload and 4 clean breaks.

I know, cool story..

I'm not implying we run to Stegmann over Sharples, but statistics are statistics and I think some new young guns deserve a look in as well as the more well known rising stars.
 
Any of you guys rate Ben Morgan at the Scarlets. Hes English but qualifies for Wales in January. He hasn't stated who he'd like to play for but turned down the Saxons in the summer, although he said he wanted to get a good pre season not that he didn't want to play for England.

I'd like him to choose Wales but i wouldn't think ill of him if he chose England, after all that is his country unlike Waldrom.
Hes a massive boy 6'4 18/19 stone and has got good pace.
I could see a back row of
6. Robshaw
7. Wood
8. Ben Morgan
complementing each other very well.
 
He's a good player, however I think he wants to/will play for Wales
Carl Fearns is a a very similar player to him as well, so we won't miss out massively - If Fearns can get over his injuries and get consistent game time at 8

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It kind of annoys me that there are a load of saxons type players signed for 'bigger' clubs who arn't getting game time now:

Keiren Brooks - played for the saxons but signed for leicester with their millions of props
PDJ - Mujati keeps him from starting apart from injurys
Kritchner - loads ahead of him the tigers have loads of locks!
Fearns - bath have loads of average backrow players who seem to start
Clegg - kept behind Evans (but would have to improve ten fold to start!)
12trees - signed to leicester but gets little game time
Trinder - Tindall ahead in the gloucester eyes...no idea why

Just a few players off the top of my head, hopefully they will ge better and start for their respective clubs!
 
Part and parcel of a team having strength in depth. Northampton last year showed the foil of relying on just an XV.
 
He's a good player, however I think he wants to/will play for Wales
Carl Fearns is a a very similar player to him as well, so we won't miss out massively - If Fearns can get over his injuries and get consistent game time at 8

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I don't think England should be desperate for Ben Morgan

he's quite decent, but he's no better than Waldrom
 
Newcastle's problems are their own shitty fault to an extent, they deliberately let their home produced England players go and have ended up in a hole. I'm not that full of sympathy.

A lot of the players mentioned as being kept behind players are there for a reason - Kitchener's been crap, Trinder is still very raw, Brookes has a lot to learn about scrummaging. I have no problem with PDJ being one of two props, clubs need good props, Fearns would have played more for Bath if fit (as would Tait for Leicester). Twelvetrees should leave Leicester, its true, while Clegg should be thinking about the possibility of leaving Quins, but Clegg's learnt an awful lot from Evans and it was a good move for him in general.

I would like Ben Morgan to think he's English. I don't think he's going to, and think we can live without. He's also a wee bit of a moron in some respects, as taking Faletau's shirt will be a lot more difficult than taking Nick Easter's.

Finally, I like what I've seen of Stegmann and wouldn't say no to him in the Saxons, but he's had nothing like the experience and proven track record of Sharples - which is why Sharples was first of that taxi rank.
 
Trinder is starting for Gloucester on Boxing day, and I think he may get more and more game time now.
He's really put his hand up when given chances this season and Tindall has been crap, and was epically so last weekend.
 

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