Second Test: Australia vs. British and Irish Lions (29/06/13)

[Amiga500]

I think Amiga just thinks Croft isn't up to scratch atm, not because Croft's English or because Amiga wants more Irishmen filling the team.

+1
Apparently it would appear looking at performances and player limitations/mistakes is not the way to select teams these days, but power of 4 tokenism is.


I don't want Tom Croft in the team, not because he is English, but because he is not that good at the majority of his primary roles as a blindside flanker. It just so happens an Irishman and a Welshman is primary competition for the position. But, for the record, I would have Chris Robshaw in the squad in a heartbeat instead of Tom Croft. Would he start? Maybe. Would he be on the bench? Definitely. Properly multi-position cover and a leader.


The fascination with Tom Croft is like the soccer fascination with attacking fullbacks who cannot defend. Looks good on a highlights reel on a run, but you won't see all the mistakes they make elsewhere on the highlights clips. I'm quite frankly amazed that Warren Gatland even considered him for the squad never mind the test team.

 

[Amiga500]

In the first, Croft isn't part of the defensive system, he comes into it from afar and buys a dummy (big deal).

From afar? So jogging into the line with Phillips and North is "from afar"? Catch a grip.

If your gonna shoot through the line and miss the ball - make sure you take the man out.

If you want to establish who's at fault, look no further than Philips jogging back.

I think I did post elsewhere on this forum I would have hooked Phillips that instant and give him a plane ticket home right after the match.

But it wasn't Phillips who broke the line and left everyone else scrambling.

The majority of other forwards would not have been at all involved in this play simply because they wouldn't have the alacrity to get to it and involve themselves.

The majority of other forwards don't hang out in the 13.5 channel either....

In the second... I just don't understand...

I know you dont.

there's a HUUUGE gap in the middle of the field with Croft potentially covering 3 men..

There is a gap, but Croft has 1 lion outside and 6 coming across inside him. The Aussies are quite deep meaning the cover will close off the pitch. All Croft has to do is be the lead drift toward the outside Lion (North) and the move is snuffed out on the touchline.

he goes towards his man(Alexander I think) who shifts the ball away from contact and into space. Firstly, how is this even counted as a defensive system... let alone a good system!? Space was exploited by skillfull backs.

Ben Alexander is now a "skillfull back". I'm sure he'll feel very proud.

but to say he is the one man at fault in two tries is nonsense.

One man? Who said it was one man?

Saying someone is at fault for something =/= solely at fault for something.

 

[Draggs]

For my money finger pointing is worse than diving over the line as you're directly taunting the opposition player rather than celebrating a try, however I don't really give a flying .... about either.
The only thing that irked me about North's point was the hypocrisy shown by those who wanted to lynch Armitage but liked North.

Should have checked out gwlad...

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

Glad to see Bowe back in the squad. =)
Youngs deservedly so starting, Phillips was terrible I thought. I'm not a big fan of Davies but he had a fantastic game and I've no problem with him starting, I'd like to see him work with BOD a bit more though.


Although this is harsh and I don't want to say it, but I think O'Brien needs to be dropped from that squad and Evans or Gray in. It's just silly not bringing a recognized second row for cover at the very highest level of the game.


Also if we're just going to throw to the front of the line out then Croft isn't needed as much (I'm a huge fan of him btw), and I'd stick Faletau on the bench because that guy has been immense - but I think Heaslips experience is vital for the starting position. If Faletau or Tipuric don't make the 23 next week I'd be very disappointed.


Dont get Cuthbert on the bench, 1 he offers no versatility across the backline, and 2 he makes far too many mistakes for my liking, ie last week dropping the ball on an easy catch and falling / tripping on the blindside of the ruck. Hogg or Kearney tbh I'd rather stick in. Or maybe Tuilagi, wish he was able to show off his power a bit more, he's really changed his game IMO.

 

[SuperEagle]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YF8excq1FoQ&feature=player_embedded

1st try - 2m 00 sec in.
Who shoots the line and fails to get either ball or man?

Are we watching the same thing?!?

1st try Quick tap and go by Genia.

North sees Croft coming to cover to make it a 3 on 3, and stays wide on his man (Phillips on Genia, Croft on O'Connor, North on Falau.) Should have been no problem but... Genia dummies Phillips then steps outside him, charges up the pitch, commits Halfpenny to the tackle then does a clever kick that allows Falau to evade the cover defense.

I don't know if you've ever played but I was always coached that in a 3 on 3, everyone takes their man. If anyone is to blame, it's Phillips - but even that would be a bit harsh.

Verdict: Not Croft's fault

2nd try - 6m 45 sec in.
Who again shoots the line and fails to get within the same timezone as the ball or men?

Again, to blame Croft is frankly stupid. There was no "line" there was just Croft and North against 3 Aussies.

Here's what I see: Phillips overcooks his box kick and the Aussies try go to right, but are thwarted by tackles, first from Heaslip then from Croft. The Wallabies now go left-left-left through the phases. They then create an overlap by switching it quickly wide right. Croft and North find themselves facing a 3 on 2. Each tries to get their man but the Aussies manage to take and give in front of the defender. Falau gets the ball as the extra man then evades the covering tackles of Sexton, Corbs AND Halfpenny to score.

Pure quality from Falau on that one. If you MUST apportion blame on the Lions, then it has to rest with the cover defense - but again that would be harsh.

Verdict: Not Croft's fault

In both cases, a fairly good (admittedly, not excellent) defensive structure was completely compromised by one man.


If he is gonna hang about out wide like a wannabe back - he has to know how to defend like one.

Not sure why you have it in for TC so much, but as described above, if you're blaming him for the tries - you're just wrong.

btw, I believe the Croft, Lydiate and SOB are all quality players and all good enough to have the Lions 6 shirt, I just feel that Amiga is being massively unfair to TC

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Should have checked out gwlad...

I do actually check Gwlad now and again (same with G&G) though both always, inevitably, end up in ripping the English :lol:
Gwlad is particularly funny - I remember at one point they were blaming Tom Youngs for tripping up someone (a welsh player) when in reality the player tripped over an aussier player in the ruck and fell into Youngs, and then hit the floor.


I've mentioned before about Croft's defence for both tries, but I'll say it again: He made the right choice in both of those instances.
First try: He had to get out there to make it 3 on 3 not 3 on 2. He rushed his man, expecting the pass, and leaving the ball carrier to his inside defender expecting him to have it covered. Not Croft's fault that Genia is so good at running :lol:
2nd try Croft had to try and shut down the move with a "ball and all" tackle - no way he could have gotten across the pitch to the wide attackers, it didn't work and they scored, but he did what he should've done.
If you could replay the game again I'd expect, and want, him to do the same in both situations as it's the right thing to do.

 

[Draggs]

I like GAGR, because they actually have some intelligent members (not so much on the forum, they are just usual ockers) that do good analysis videos. They stuck it to Pollock for his Crim-favourable refereeing.

 

[dullonien]

I can see Amiga's points regarding Croft shooting out the line on both Auusies try's. It isn't solely his fault, but he leaves the other defenders in impossible situations. Either you smash someone, or you drift and push the attack towards the touch. Croft went for the intercept in that first try, if he'd got it he'd be being praised, but ultimately it's something that leaves your defence exposed if it doesn't come off.

I also hate the fact that Phillips just jogs back. He may not have been able to do anything to stop the try, but you bust a gut to try. If Halfpenny had tackled Genia before he put the grubber in, Having Phillips back to get stuck into the ruck as quick as possible would have helped. Ultimately, his jogging back didn't make any difference, but I don't like to see a player not even try.

I think some need to realise that when a player is criticised, it's not because he's from a different nation, but because he's made some errors. I'm happy to criticise Phillips for his jogging back, and I'm happy to criticise Croft for his defensive lapses, especially in the first try.

Edit. On further viewing Croft goes to tackle the man, so I'm happy. Put that down to Genia's brilliance.

 

[Peat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YF8excq1FoQ&feature=player_embedded

1st try - 2m 00 sec in.
Who shoots the line and fails to get either ball or man?

2nd try - 6m 45 sec in.
Who again shoots the line and fails to get within the same timezone as the ball or men?


In both cases, a fairly good (admittedly, not excellent) defensive structure was completely compromised by one man.


If he is gonna hang about out wide like a wannabe back - he has to know how to defend like one.

I'm sorry Amiga, but none of that's true. They weren't good defensive structures and Croft is far from the main point of failure in either.

In the first try we do not have a good defensive structure. It starts with 3 on 2 for the Wallabies from a quick tap penalty with half the Lions only starting to jog back. The only reason it is 3 on 3 is that Croft has the presence of mind to see the issue and work round. Unfortunately, nobody else has the presence of mind to start working into that line; when Genia makes that dummy, yes Croft buys it like a fool - but so does Phillips, as Genia steps inside him - going nowhere near Croft. There's no one within ten metres of Philips on the inside. That is not a good defensive structure. It never is. If its compromised by anyone, its Philips for getting done by Genia, which is very harsh as he's having to backpedal against the best running scrum-half around - or North, for later coming in on a covered man. Croft staying in line would have done absolutely nothing. Genia would have still broken that first line. The reality of the situation is we had a crap defensive line in that situation though.

In the second try the defensive line once again is poor. If you pause it at 6:46, you see the Lions only having two players in about 40 pc of the pitch. That's Croft and North. The Australians have three. This situation is intrinsically bad. Croft is about six metres away from his inside man, which appears to be Corbisiero. North is about 20. 25 metres away from Croft. Croft is now effectively in no man's land against a 2 on 1 as neither North or Corbs are close enough to be trusted to make the tackle. I don't think rushing up on the Aussie player was the right choice, he was never going to get there but it doesn't make a huge amount of difference. If he doesn't move, Moore (I think) releases Barnes who can run towards North to commit him before releasing an unmarked Folau because if Croft covers Moore first, he's not getting there. If he starts to drift straight onto Barnes to stop that, Moore can probably make the linebreak himself. Classic 2 on 1. It's not a good defensive structure - the Lions have no drifted around fast enough, and they've got a fatboy in Corbs out wide, and they've allowed Australia to work a 3 on 2 in about half the pitch. How on earth can that be good?

Geech says he thinks Lydiate has been brought in to sit on Genia which sounds a bloody good idea fairness

 

[dullonien]

snip.

After a couple of viewings, I agree with all of that.

Am I allowed to edit (read, delete) my post above so I don't look stupid?

 

[j'nuh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YF8excq1FoQ&feature=player_embedded

1st try - 2m 00 sec in.
Who shoots the line and fails to get either ball or man?

2nd try - 6m 45 sec in.
Who again shoots the line and fails to get within the same timezone as the ball or men?


In both cases, a fairly good (admittedly, not excellent) defensive structure was completely compromised by one man.


If he is gonna hang about out wide like a wannabe back - he has to know how to defend like one.

You never replied to me when I went over this:

First try: come on, it's just a very, very convincing dummy that would have fooled most people. Had the pass been given, Croft would have nailed O'Connor and probably gotten a turnover in a very dangerous area of the field, given his forward momentum and support from Phillips and North and a lack of any for O'Connor. It was well-worth the risk, considering that Halfpenny made up a third defender and a try should have still been avoided (and only occurred because of Genia's ability to run rings around Phillips, and the very neat/partly lucky kick he got away).

Second try: Corbisiero was the defender to the right of Croft. He would not have the speed to pull a drift defence successfully. The only way of stopping execution of an overlap with that much space is to nail man with ball, which Croft and North try with near success. Had Croft not tried to force the pass, Mowen simply had to run from deep onto Alexander's shoulder, and received a pop pass. He'd have been through the gap at an incredible speed with support from Folau. Croft and North's actions isolated Folau. We wouldn't be having this discussion had Sexton made his tackle...

 

[Amiga500]

You never replied to me when I went over this:

Sorry - was away from the computer and probably missed a few replies.


The first try - if Croft dumps his man regardless of dummy, then North and halfpenny are 2 v 2, not 2 v 3. That changes the whole complexion of the defence. If Croft drifts then like North, turns and tracks post-dummy, then Croft, North and Halfpenny are 3 v 3, not 2 v 3. [oh, and I still would be sending Phillips on the first plane home - so don't mistake me apportioning blame to Croft as meaning I am exonerating that lazy bstart.]


The second try - there were 6 Lions in a row working across. They would have completely cut the inside of the field and closed the gap to the touchline. The defence just had to drift, even dogleg - it would also have allowed Sexton to join the line adding another effective defender.



Thing is - if Croft is going to maneuver himself into an outside centre position - he has to be able to defend like one - and that involves knowing when to stick, when to drift and when to shoot. Otherwise you are safer him not being there as it leaves the other backs wrong-footed. If BOD or Barritt had been in Croft's position, I'd be pretty sure the Aussies would not have scored either try.

 

[dullonien]

The first try - if Croft dumps his man regardless of dummy, then North and halfpenny are 2 v 2, not 2 v 3.

Croft couldn't tackle O'Connor that far off the ball! If he had, the try would have probably still been scored and Croft would be in line for a yellow card. On some occasions I condone tackling the man without the ball regardless, but this wasn't one of those situations.

 

[Jaguares]

Wallabies has two wingers former Rugby League players, both have similar bodies and characteristics.

It's the solution for aussies?

Regards

 

[InsaneAsylum]

Was thinking about doing this to the Wallabies myself as i've ended in the same Hotel as them

You're in the Intercontinental? Wow... one of the fanciest hotels in Melbourne. must have cost a small fortune

Wouldn't think you enjoy seeing any more of George Norths' runs

lol well played sir

Wallabies has two wingers former Rugby League players, both have similar bodies and characteristics.

It's the solution for aussies?

Regards

I think it was a tough choice between cummins and tomane for this test, rather than our solution being to use league players as wingers.

 

[sifplay]

Marvelous to see a horde of drunken Europeans in Melbourne as 4 nations gang up on Australia. It's like playing the WI in cricket

 

[Amiga500]

Croft couldn't tackle O'Connor that far off the ball!

Course he could. Might have been sanctioned.

If he had, the try would have probably still been scored and Croft would be in line for a yellow card.

The try almost certainly wouldn't have been scored, but he might have been carded, unlikely IMO.

 

[Amiga500]

Anyhoo - as much as I think Tom Croft is a showpony. If he comes on later, I hope he runs in 5 tries from under our own goaline!!!

 

[sifplay]

55 meters was about 2 cm too far for Halfpenny.

 

[austingtir]

Wallabies are going to get thrashed in this one.