SANZAAR to cut 3 teams in 2018

[Brigantine]

Of course they are a country, who would argue otherwise? It is a sovereign state, at that.

Just that they're a principality of France and Spain, with their heads of state decided by French elections and appointments from the Spanish church.

I'm hoping someone will argue that they're not a principality...

 

[stadetousain90]

Just that they're a principality of France and Spain, with their heads of state decided by French elections and appointments from the Spanish church.

I'm hoping someone will argue that they're not a principality...

They actually are, but Wales is not. That being said, Andorra is a sovereign state while Wales is not (as a country in The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland). So technically, Andorra would have a more legitimate reason to be a member of an international organization than Wales.

I would like to add, I recently visited Andorra. It is a BEAUTIFUL country.

 

[smartcooky]

Why the hell does Australia have to pay for SANZAAR's mistake by losing a team - SANZAAR can eat a huge fat bag of dicks, because it's not going to fix their problem. They created the problem by trying to expand too quickly, so they can fix it another way.

Remember, it was the ARU who wanted to have a fifth team "to improve the development of Australian Rugby", and then when they got it, they promptly filled it with with foreign players (including Kiwis and Saffas) because they couldn't find enough Australians of a sufficiently high standard to make up the squad. What a right-royal cock-up that was. Who was the brain-dead moron in the ARU who thought it was a good idea for them to take on a team they neither needed nor could afford.

It is no coincidence that the performances and fortunes of the Australian franchises and the national team have gone downhill since the expansion to five teams. Some people might like to point to Australia winning the Rugby Championship in 2015, but keep in mind, that it was only half a championship with the Wallabies having a home advantage for the two major matches.

 

[InsaneAsylum]

Remember, it was the ARU who wanted to have a fifth team "to improve the development of Australian Rugby", and then when they got it, they promptly filled it with with foreign players (including Kiwis and Saffas) because they couldn't find enough Australians of a sufficiently high standard to make up the squad. What a right-royal cock-up that was. Who was the brain-dead moron in the ARU who thought it was a good idea for them to take on a team they neither needed nor could afford.

It is no coincidence that the performances and fortunes of the Australian franchises and the national team have gone downhill since the expansion to five teams. Some people might like to point to Australia winning the Rugby Championship in 2015, but keep in mind, that it was only half a championship with the Wallabies having a home advantage for the two major matches.

It's a tough one mate, NZ have the benfit of stability, they haven't expanded for 20 years and they have an enviable depth of players.
If NZ expanded to 6 teams, would you have enough experienced players to cover that team, or would you send a mix of old heads like Stephen Donald, Kaino etc. to help influence
the new players bought through from NPC?


Also you don't really have to compete with AFL over there which is like Rugby's cancer. That's why we need teams in Melbourne and Perth. Drop either of those and AFL wins.


We have the numbers here in Aus, and the big name internationals who initially played for the Rebels were all gone within one or two years.
It was a developmental thing rather than an "oh crap, we don't have enough good players". The Rebels and Force don't have the benifit of hitory behind them, so it's going to be a work in progress situation for some time.


Don't forget Christian Leali'ifano and Digby Ioane grew up in Melbourne, they were fortunate enough to move states to follow their dream, imagine the others who slipped through the cracks
because they couldn't move to a rugby school in order to be identified as a talent.


We have already produced 5 players at the Rebels in our short history, that's a pretty good conversion rate for an AFL obsessed state, don't you think?

 

[The Jones Boy]

It's better than nothing.
Melbourne is nutty about AFL or as I remember it VFL.
Perth is also a bit nutty about AFL with the glory boy Eagles and the Mighty Dockers.
No doubt it's a massive uphill struggle to develop union talent in those areas.
I worry that the contraction of one team in the Super rugby may not lead to an improvement in the national teams performances.

 

[stadetousain90]

We have the numbers here in Aus

Do we really have the numbers here? Even in Queensland, I find the number of serious Rugby participants very small. This is actually one of the major reasons that I started playing League when I moved here.

I desperately want to see Australia keep 5 franchises...but I just do not see enough quality players here. That being said, I do not really think that cutting a franchise will help the Wallabies either.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Do we really have the numbers here? Even in Queensland, I find the number of serious Rugby participants very small. This is actually one of the major reasons that I started playing League when I moved here.

I desperately want to see Australia keep 5 franchises...but I just do not see enough quality players here. That being said, I do not really think that cutting a franchise will help the Wallabies either.

If you really had the numbers, then this whole cutting of teams wouldn't have been an issue.

It's the same for South Africa, and it has been a humbling experience. We thought we had the numbers, and that's part in parcel of why we wanted to expand to a 6th team, apart from the political issues. But more often than not, due to the exodus of players going to the NH, we just don't have enough quality players to fill those gaps.

But the Force and the Rebels have always had players from other nationalities playing for them.

Rebels:
England: Danny Cipriani (16), Max Lahiff (64), Michael Lipman (7)
Fiji: Alex Rokobaro (48)
Ireland: Jamie Hagan (90), Tom Sexton (81),
Japan: Keita Inagaki (85), Shota Horie (49), Kotaro Matsushima (91), Male Sa'u (70)
New Zealand: Tom Chamberlain (24), Tamati Ellison (50), Scott Fuglistaller (45), Daniel Hawkins (89), Hoani MacDonald (8), Kevin O'Neill (11), Jono Owen (40), Ged Robinson (12), Greg Somerville (14), Adam Thomson (87), Jason Woodward (53),
Russia: Adam Byrnes (1)
Samoa: Steve Fualau (66)
South Africa: JP du Plessis (31)
Tonga: Eddie Aholelei (39), Telusa Veainu (68), Cooper Vuna (15)
Wales Gareth Delve (3)
United States: James King (58)

Force:

Fiji: Semisi Masirewa, Napolioni Nalaga
New Zealand: Jermaine Ainsley, Ben Castle, Sam Christie, Chris Eaton, Tim Fairbrother, Jayden Hayward, David Hill, Toby Lynn, Tajhon Mailata, Alby Mathewson, Ammon Matuauto, Albert Nikoro, Junior Pelesasa, Anaru Rangi, Jordan Rapana, Willie Ripia, Mitchell Scott, Winston Stanley, David Te Moana
Samoa: David Smith, Josh Tatupu
South Africa: Chris Alcock, Sias Ebersohn, Peter Grant, Chris Heiberg, Dillyn Leyds, Ryan Louwrens, André Pretorius, Ruan Smith, Brynard Stander, Wilhelm Steenkamp, Mark Swanepoel, Francois van Wyk
Tonga: Elvis Taione
United States: Marcel Brache

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I don't know if SA's issue is as much quality in depth as it is experience in depth. I don't think our youngsters are any less than their older Euro based counterparts were at that stage but green horn teams will struggle against settled sides as simple as that.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Would RSA have benefitted from some sort of draft system? Spread the young talent around the sides

 

[TRF_heineken]

Would RSA have benefitted from some sort of draft system? Spread the young talent around the sides

Well, yes and no. We have a system in place that works relatively well.

But we are actually looking at introducing a drafting system for the youngsters. Whether this will be union orientated or purely for Super Rugby, I don't know, but there has been some discussion on drafting taking place.

I think this will take shape after the whole "who should we cut from Super Rugby" talks are done and dusted.

 

[InsaneAsylum]

Rebels:
England: Danny Cipriani (16), Max Lahiff (64), Michael Lipman (7)
Fiji: Alex Rokobaro (48)
Ireland: Jamie Hagan (90), Tom Sexton (81),
Japan: Keita Inagaki (85), Shota Horie (49), Kotaro Matsushima (91), Male Sa'u (70)
New Zealand: Tom Chamberlain (24), Tamati Ellison (50), Scott Fuglistaller (45), Daniel Hawkins (89), Hoani MacDonald (8), Kevin O'Neill (11), Jono Owen (40), Ged Robinson (12), Greg Somerville (14), Adam Thomson (87), Jason Woodward (53),
Russia: Adam Byrnes (1)
Samoa: Steve Fualau (66)
South Africa: JP du Plessis (31)
Tonga: Eddie Aholelei (39), Telusa Veainu (68), Cooper Vuna (15)
Wales Gareth Delve (3)
United States: James King (58)

Heineken, I'm splitting hair here but I have to correct you on a few of these.
Rokobaro is an aussie kid, played all his rugby and schooling in aus but capped by fiji. similar circumstances to ben volavola and nemani nadolo.
byrnes is aussie, played all his rugby in aus until he was capped by russia.
aholelei was playing rugby in aus until he was capped by tonga.
Vuna is a capped Wallaby.
The four japanese players were developmental and are now playing for or have played with the sunwolves - consider this a credit to the development of super rugby.
cipriani, delve, lipman, somerville, macdonald, o'neill, chamberlain, robinson, jp du plessis were all initial signings in the inaugural year. the rebels had to start somewhere, and these players weren't around for long with the exception of delve who became captain and was really instrumental in developing the team.
fualau, hawkins and james king were injury cover.


that leaves, lahiff, hagan, sexton, ellison, thompson, fugistaller, woodward and veainu. i can assure you that with the exception of ellison and thompson who were marquee players, I witnessed the others on this list regularly playing club rugby when they weren't in the rebels 23. they helped to raise the standard of our club rugby competition dramatically.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Heineken, I'm splitting hair here but I have to correct you on a few of these.
Rokobaro is an aussie kid, played all his rugby and schooling in aus but capped by fiji. similar circumstances to ben volavola and nemani nadolo.
byrnes is aussie, played all his rugby in aus until he was capped by russia.
aholelei was playing rugby in aus until he was capped by tonga.
Vuna is a capped Wallaby.
The four japanese players were developmental and are now playing for or have played with the sunwolves - consider this a credit to the development of super rugby.
cipriani, delve, lipman, somerville, macdonald, o'neill, chamberlain, robinson, jp du plessis were all initial signings in the inaugural year. the rebels had to start somewhere, and these players weren't around for long with the exception of delve who became captain and was really instrumental in developing the team.
fualau, hawkins and james king were injury cover.


that leaves, lahiff, hagan, sexton, ellison, thompson, fugistaller, woodward and veainu. i can assure you that with the exception of ellison and thompson who were marquee players, I witnessed the others on this list regularly playing club rugby when they weren't in the rebels 23. they helped to raise the standard of our club rugby competition dramatically.

Oh I'm sure that some of those are wrong. I used the info that was available to me based on the Rebels page, and some other sites. The thing is though, that those are enough names to make up a team on their own. Which says a lot about the lack of development going on in the Melbourne area, which kind of begs the question regarding sustainability. As for the Japanese players, and with all due respect, they played for the Rebels before the Sunwolves even existed, and were already capped by Japan. So there was no prospect of them ever becoming project players like Scotland is doing.

I was merely trying to show how much assistance these 2 aussie teams needed outside their feeding area in order to get a team up and running, and to keep them going afterwards.

If we would compare these 2 teams to teams like the Sunwolves, Jaguares and even the Kings, then purely based on using local talent, the 2 Aussie teams have failed miserably, while the 3 newcomers, have shown that there are actually enough of their own guys to have a team.

I don't have a problem with teams having the odd 3 or 4 guys from other nations in their squad to boost their profile and making them stronger, like Michalak for the Sharks as an example, but it shouldn't overpower the development program each team has.

I'm not trying to bash anyone, I'm merely looking at it from a sustainability perspective.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Cheetahs taking the legal route apparently. The more I think on it the more I feel while culling the weak is good for the competition it could've/should've been handled better.

I am still of the opinion we should have a two tier system with 12 teams in the top tier and the existing 6 others in tier 2 along with a 6th team from NZ and where ever we can scratch together 3 more sides at least to get the bottom tier up to at least 10 sides, maybe 2nd teams from Arg, Japan, Singapore, Uruguay, North America, Zimbabwe, Namibia, Kenya, Madagascar or the PI nations.

 

[InsaneAsylum]

Oh I'm sure that some of those are wrong. I used the info that was available to me based on the Rebels page, and some other sites. The thing is though, that those are enough names to make up a team on their own. Which says a lot about the lack of development going on in the Melbourne area, which kind of begs the question regarding sustainability. As for the Japanese players, and with all due respect, they played for the Rebels before the Sunwolves even existed, and were already capped by Japan. So there was no prospect of them ever becoming project players like Scotland is doing.

I was merely trying to show how much assistance these 2 aussie teams needed outside their feeding area in order to get a team up and running, and to keep them going afterwards.

If we would compare these 2 teams to teams like the Sunwolves, Jaguares and even the Kings, then purely based on using local talent, the 2 Aussie teams have failed miserably, while the 3 newcomers, have shown that there are actually enough of their own guys to have a team.

I don't have a problem with teams having the odd 3 or 4 guys from other nations in their squad to boost their profile and making them stronger, like Michalak for the Sharks as an example, but it shouldn't overpower the development program each team has.

I'm not trying to bash anyone, I'm merely looking at it from a sustainability perspective.

Thanks, I didn't think you were trying to bash anyone. It's just frustrating when you only follow Rugby and a lot of people have wanted to see your team killed off since the start.


I don't follow AFL, soccer or league and it's generally other Aussies who would be happy to see the Rebels die because they think that filtering the Rebels better players into their team will make them stronger.


I go and watch Melbourne club Rugby every now and then. Without the Rebels, these guys and their kids have nothing to aspire to. Getting rid of the Rebels runs a lot deeper than people realise.

 

[Unol Daleithiau]

Without the Rebels, these guys and their kids have nothing to aspire to.

They could make it in the NRC, and get spotted. There is no reason that a good Victorian player cannot play for another Super team.

Also, what of the Force? It is not fair to the players of WA to lose their franchise either...and from what I understand, WA has actually produced more talent.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

i'm living in Melbourne currently and the only guy i know who goes to the rebels is an english guy i work with. do you think a re brand would help them Insaneasylum? dont know if its the "another blue kit" side of things or there start with so many out of towners but the people i talk too dont really associate them with as "their" team

 

[InsaneAsylum]

fair enough guys, firstly I do not want to see the Force go down either. I am a firm believer that 5 teams are required.

Jabby, you will have worked out that Melbourne is quite multicultural by now, they rugby community is well represented by ex pat UK, as well as south africans and kiwis and a lot of aussies of islander decent. I am probably one of the rare few that didn't come from another state or country but we are all rugby fans first and foremost and yes, our local players can still aim for the rising, but they'll have to move house and move state if they are serious about going to the next level. that would seriously detract from the local comp.

I would entertain a merger and rebrand as long as there were a few home games held in Melbourne. perhaps that way more people would show up as there are less games. I guess we will have to wait and see although the whole situation was handled poorly by the ARU. I'm not sure if you guys realise but fans over here are not happy, not only Rebels and Force fans, but Brumbies, Reds and Waratahs. We all believe that cutting a team wont make a difference and that the ARU board must resign and the ARU remodeled around the NZ structure instead of favouring NSW and QLD

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I think two tier with the second tier being smaller would have worked, teams struggling have a smaller comp so less expensive but still the chance of some buzz come promotion time

Give the sunwolves and rebels and the like a bit more time playing against comparable teams to develop without having to fork out a fortune to travel the world and get spanked

 

[Car]

All these different rumours are really annoying me. As if it wasn't bad enough that we have to wait that long. The one rumour that at least made me chuckle was the idea by a fan to merge the Force and the Rebels, share matches between both places and call the team Rebel Force. At least that name sounds good.

 

[InsaneAsylum]

The 2 tier comp is the best idea, like the old NPC from way back with promotion and relegation.

The whole situation with the ARU has become farcical, they are a laughing stock - the NZRU would never have let this play out the way it did