SANZAAR to cut 3 teams in 2018

[TRF_heineken]

Not to be contrary but I don't think that argument holds up anymore in SR since we are clearly unable to hold on to our players ad get player continuity from year to year. Its no coincidence that the Lions are the only SA able to compete as they are the only team without at least 5 newbies from year t year. Also no coincidence the Cheetahs' only entry into the playoffs came the year they managed to keep hold of their players from the previous year.

We need to acknowledge we need to buy into Europe because Europe is buying us whether we like it or not and its due to economic circumstances SARU has no control over.

Okay, maybe I should've phrased it better, I should've said that we won't leave completely/entirely. My argument still holds merit though, and the thing is that with the current springbok policy of only selecting locally based players or Springbok players with more than 30 caps when they play abroad, it does seem that SA Rugby also feels this way.

I know of many supporters who would be furious if we leave Super Rugby, and inevitably abandon the Rugby Championship.

I say before we get all doom and gloom, let's see what happens next year with our dualistic approach of playing in both tournaments, and see what the viability for both of them are.

 

[saulan]

Not to be contrary but I don't think that argument holds up anymore in SR since we are clearly unable to hold on to our players ad get player continuity from year to year. Its no coincidence that the Lions are the only SA able to compete as they are the only team without at least 5 newbies from year t year. Also no coincidence the Cheetahs' only entry into the playoffs came the year they managed to keep hold of their players from the previous year.

We need to acknowledge we need to buy into Europe because Europe is buying us whether we like it or not and its due to economic circumstances SARU has no control over. We can't measure our best against NZ opp if we can't field them and I am of the opinion the quality up North is right up there.

I agree with this. I often check out the Australian sites to see what the users are commenting on articles and they are quite keen to get rid of us. Even the thought of trying to kick out the Sharks, who have really been one of our top three sides in this tournament, is terrible. The Australians have been incredibly poor this season and even so, they suggest kicking three South African teams from Super Rugby? Then we may as well pull them all out. I get the tradition side of keeping SA teams in to stay competitive against New Zealand sides, but this is clearly not working at the moment because we are not able to keep our best players in the country (There have many posts about how many good sides you could make with our expats in Europe, with roughly 5 or 6 sides being possible).

Cutting three SA teams I feel will exasperate the feeling that we are not wanted, and I am sure there will be a loss in viewership from South Africa as a result (especially from KZN). When South African money is currently driving the tournament, it would be bad news for the tournament. I get having the untapped markets included arguments, but when that comes at an expense at the most developed market (financially), then there are serious issues.

That said, on the SH front, I still believe that the rugby championship would still hold regardless of what becomes of Super Rugby. I just feel that Australia is not playing ball at the moment, SA is getting shafted and there are some great opportunities presenting themselves for us up north. This really does not bode well for the health of this competition.

(I also believe that SR will become our "second tier" tournament against Pro 14, because I'm certain the pay in Pro 14 SA clubs will be higher. Players will get the best of both worlds, living in SA and higher salaries)

Just how I'm feeling about this all at the moment. Open to discussion on any of these points.

 

[unrated]

People are very harsh on Super rugby. It's still a great tournament. And I still believe the type of play we witness in Super rugby is some of the best you can find in club rugby. But I would never want to give up super rugby for a tournament such as the pro 12 with its own financial difficulties . Maybe the top 14 but the French are xenophobic so I don't think they would even entertain that idea. Super rugby will improve with time . Everyone is getting a bit riled up with the idea that two of our teams are going north.

 

[TRF_heineken]

People are very harsh on Super rugby. It's still a great tournament. And I still believe the type of play we witness in Super rugby is some of the best you can find in club rugby. But I would never want to give up super rugby for a tournament such as the pro 12 with its own financial difficulties . Maybe the top 14 but the French are xenophobic so I don't think they would even entertain that idea. Super rugby will improve with time . Everyone is getting a bit riled up with the idea that two of our teams are going north.

This!

I think a lot of the negativity surround South Africa and Super Rugby was because of the format of the tournament, and how it affected our teams...

We are now reverting back to the format when SA actually had teams regularly in the finals, and winning the trophy.

Another thing is that plenty of fans hate NH boring rugby, especially those new to the sport. We will soon see how optimistic the writers and fans are when a couple of the Pro12/14 games are muddy kickfests without tries being scored like in Super Rugby.

 

[munstermuffin]

This!

I think a lot of the negativity surround South Africa and Super Rugby was because of the format of the tournament, and how it affected our teams...

We are now reverting back to the format when SA actually had teams regularly in the finals, and winning the trophy.

Another thing is that plenty of fans hate NH boring rugby, especially those new to the sport. We will soon see how optimistic the writers and fans are when a couple of the Pro12/14 games are muddy kickfests without tries being scored like in Super Rugby.

In fairness Pro12 rugby is alot more exciting the ERCC and Internationals. Connacht and Glasgow are probably 2 of the most exciting teams around to watch. Not because they're flying it but they play rugby regardless of where they are on the field

 

[saulan]

We are now reverting back to the format when SA actually had teams regularly in the finals, and winning the trophy.

To be honest, we are only half doing this. Yes we are cutting down to four SA teams, but we still have six teams. And I think the whole point was to try consolidate the SA teams so that they would be stronger. That point has been missed by this development. I guess the only hope is that with the two teams in Pro 14 earning more, we would be able to retain more players in SA. But that will only help SA rugby, not our competitiveness in SR. Time will tell though.

 

[munstermuffin]

To be honest, we are only half doing this. Yes we are cutting down to four SA teams, but we still have six teams. And I think the whole point was to try consolidate the SA teams so that they would be stronger. That point has been missed by this development. I guess the only hope is that with the two teams in Pro 14 earning more, we would be able to retain more players in SA. But that will only help SA rugby, not our competitiveness in SR. Time will tell though.

Will there be a split though in the SARU with some wanting all the teams to move toward NH rugby and others wanting to stay in Super Rugby?
Like will the Sharks for example be very ticked off if they see the Kings earning alot more money from TV rights and argubally get bigger exposure as their games will all be on at a suitable time for audiences etc

 

[TRF_heineken]

To be honest, we are only half doing this. Yes we are cutting down to four SA teams, but we still have six teams. And I think the whole point was to try consolidate the SA teams so that they would be stronger. That point has been missed by this development. I guess the only hope is that with the two teams in Pro 14 earning more, we would be able to retain more players in SA. But that will only help SA rugby, not our competitiveness in SR. Time will tell though.

This might be true, yes. But we have enough players to feed 6 teams. And this has been the original argument ever since the talks were to introduce the Kings to Super Rugby. The issue in the past was however to try and curb the exodus of our players to the North. This plan of the Cheetahs and the Kings is the first phase I think in doing this. The possibility is now that players in possession of SA Passports already playing in the Pro12 but for other teams, who has the aspirations of playing for the Bokke, would rather join the Kings and Cheetahs than stay with their current team (Pending contractual obligations), or alternatively join a Super Rugby team.

We remain competitive in Super Rugby, this year even more so than the Aussie teams. And they are really making a mess of the whole issue, while we have shown that we are in with the cutting of teams, complied swiftly, and everyone is happy.

Will there be a split though in the SARU with some wanting all the teams to move toward NH rugby and others wanting to stay in Super Rugby?
Like will the Sharks for example be very ticked off if they see the Kings earning alot more money from TV rights and argubally get bigger exposure as their games will all be on at a suitable time for audiences etc

That is an issue, I think SARU will adress very quickly. And here is where I think the plan of introducing centralised contracts, will be of paramount importance. Let SARU collect the revenue, from both Super Rugby and Pro14, and divide it equally amongst the stakeholders and players. Then there won't be any issues later on.

 

[unrated]

Will there be a split though in the SARU with some wanting all the teams to move toward NH rugby and others wanting to stay in Super Rugby?
Like will the Sharks for example be very ticked off if they see the Kings earning alot more money from TV rights and argubally get bigger exposure as their games will all be on at a suitable time for audiences etc

I don't think the rest of the Super rugby franchises should benefit from the Cheetahs and Kings move to the north. Nor should they be mad when those two teams start earning more than them.
The above mentioned teams are now taking a (necessary) risk by going into a new league. They won't share Super rugby money with the other teams because they will be generating their own income in a new league.

If our four remaining franchises are not prepared to take risks then why should they benefit from those that do.

If 6 people is in a business partnership and two of the guys decide to leave the partnership and pursue other avenues while the remaining 4 partners remain steadfast in their decision to remain in their chosen profession then the 4 remaining people has no right to be angered if the other two becomes more successful.

So back to the Super rugby context the remaining four sa teams will already benefit by having two less teams to share their tv money with. If the Cheetahs and Kings becomes successful and can suddenly buy good players then I say good for them.

 

[munstermuffin]

I don't think the rest of the Super rugby franchises should benefit from the Cheetahs and Kings move to the north. Nor should they be mad when those two teams start earning more than them.
The above mentioned teams are now taking a (necessary) risk by going into a new league. They won't share Super rugby money with the other teams because they will be generating their own income in a new league.

If our four remaining franchises are not prepared to take risks then why should they benefit from those that do.

If 6 people is in a business partnership and two of the guys decide to leave the partnership and pursue other avenues while the remaining 4 partners remain steadfast in their decision to remain in their chosen profession then the 4 remaining people has no right to be angered if the other two becomes more successful.

So back to the Super rugby context the remaining four sa teams will already benefit by having two less teams to share their tv money with. If the Cheetahs and Kings becomes successful and can suddenly buy good players then I say good for them.

Yes but obviously there is impacts such as if Kings can offer alot more than Sharks for example will it be top players all go to those 2 franchises for money etc.
As I said internally it is up in air on how it will be dealt with. Maybe there is a plan in place already.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I don't think the rest of the Super rugby franchises should benefit from the Cheetahs and Kings move to the north. Nor should they be mad when those two teams start earning more than them.
The above mentioned teams are now taking a (necessary) risk by going into a new league. They won't share Super rugby money with the other teams because they will be generating their own income in a new league.

If our four remaining franchises are not prepared to take risks then why should they benefit from those that do.

If 6 people is in a business partnership and two of the guys decide to leave the partnership and pursue other avenues while the remaining 4 partners remain steadfast in their decision to remain in their chosen profession then the 4 remaining people has no right to be angered if the other two becomes more successful.

So back to the Super rugby context the remaining four sa teams will already benefit by having two less teams to share their tv money with. If the Cheetahs and Kings becomes successful and can suddenly buy good players then I say good for them.

In some way you are right yes. But then again, we don't know exactly what happened behind closed doors when all the franchises and SARU met regarding the cut of 2 SA teams from Super Rugby. One thing is for sure that whatever agreement was reached, was an amicable resolution to the benefit of everybody. Otherwise there wouldn't have been such quick response, and I bet you there would have been a pending court case by the Cheetahs.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

It is the best of both worlds for the SARU and absolutely no rush for them to make a further decision on their long term direction. Plus, the Kings and Cheetahs are kept alive while your other sides remain competitive enough that the Lions could easily win SuperRugby. While the Oz and NZ unions have major issues and have to rely on rugby taking off in Japan and the future of the Jaguares seems unclear. I'd rather be in South Africa's shoes personally out of all SANZAAR.

The playing conditions, stadia and lack of "showbiz" in the Pro12 might be a shock to South Africans but the only Pro12 sides that don't try to play flowing rugby and focus on "old school NH style" are arguably Edinburgh, Treviso, Munster and Zebre. And even then, all of those sides are looking to develop their backline play. There needs to be more artificial surfaces though in my opinion. The champions of the last three years, Glasgow, Connacht and Scarlets all had some excellent backline play.

 

[munstermuffin]

It is the best of both worlds for the SARU and absolutely no rush for them to make a further decision on their long term direction. Plus, the Kings and Cheetahs are kept alive while your other sides remain competitive enough that the Lions could easily win SuperRugby. While the Oz and NZ unions have major issues and have to rely on rugby taking off in Japan and the future of the Jaguares seems unclear. I'd rather be in South Africa's shoes personally out of all SANZAAR.

The playing conditions, stadia and lack of "showbiz" in the Pro12 might be a shock to South Africans but the only Pro12 sides that don't try to play flowing rugby and focus on "old school NH style" are arguably Edinburgh, Treviso, Munster and Zebre. And even then, all of those sides are looking to develop their backline play. There needs to be more artificial surfaces though in my opinion. The champions of the last three years, Glasgow, Connacht and Scarlets all had some excellent backline play.

Have to say that is a very accurate and excellent post. On the "old school" style like regards Munster. That is born from South African mentality. The thing is South African teams are capable of doing both comfortably and I think it'll be fun to see how they adapt game to game to different elements and styles week to week.
For example if they did a block of Leinster Munster Connacht away. Leinster in RDS is a flowing style in nice conditions in fine stadium. Munster will play kicking style in blustery swirly wind in fine stadium then up to Dportsground where Connacht play nice running style but I can guarantee the South African teams would get a fright seeing the Sportsground and it's conditions

 

[Car]

When did that change of style happen?

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

When did that change of style happen?

I am no expert but I think Glasgow became one of the first more creative sides four or five years ago. Around the same time as rule changes to the scrum also saw international sides like Argentina also completely change their style.

The change in tactics is here to stay as the backline focussed teams are lifting the trophies while the set piece ones aren't. An oversimplification but I think coaches will copy what is being successful elsewhere.

 

[mania]

is it too late to cut the tahs ? that was a pathetic performance.