SA vs Wales (June 2022 series)

[Welsh Exile]

I will never not call you the Oracle from this moment onwards, Oracle.

Wow. Little lost for words. No way did Nienaber arrive at this team on his own but happy all the same. It's going to be odd (and a challenge I may add) to watch this test, trying to concentrate hard on almost every position for once to see how each player is going. I wouldn't mind that much if they lost - this was so necessary.

I'm gonna have to watch this several times. Pivac is going to have his work cut out for him - no one expected this (with the exception of the Oracle, but that goes without saying).

I just said to my brother that the analysis boys are going to be super busy the rest of the week. I don't think it will effect our team to much in terms of selection but who knows.

 

[WaterboySA]

Yeah, im actually a bit more optimistic about winning. Don't get me wrong, I'm not putting my house on it and I wasn't exactly super optimistic before but 100% this is a big risk that I'm glad you've taken as I think it gives us a slightly improved chance of winning. Having said that we'll probably lose by 15 plus points.

Agree on the risk, but MANNNN this team could be huge....if only they knew each other's names lol.....

 

[saulan]

Confirmation coming through the grapevines that the players had been told before the first game that they would be playing/starting in the second test. I'm quite intrigued if 3rd test will be first test team or a mix of the two.

 

[WaterboySA]

Confirmation coming through the grapevines that the players had been told before the first game that they would be playing/starting in the second test. I'm quite intrigued if 3rd test will be first test team or a mix of the two.

Think it could be combo from the two games, having the World Cup in mind.....

 

[ChicagoKid]

Confirmation coming through the grapevines that the players had been told before the first game that they would be playing/starting in the second test. I'm quite intrigued if 3rd test will be first test team or a mix of the two.

Rumor is the 3rd test will be a 100% strength side barring injuries to get a proper warm-up game ahead of NZ series. I'm elated to watch this squad in action because it's basically an all-star team from the major Club leagues.

 

[Eleutherarch]

There is always risk. You cannot eliminate it. And sometimes you have to increase more immediate risks for future pay-off. In this case, potentially more depth, stability and versatility for '23 and beyond.

Pivac can and should be spinning this to the Welsh boys as being disrespectful (regardless of whether it has a grain of truth).

These particular players are not second string. Sure there are a few debutants and people returning from injury lay-offs but that doesn't mean anything. Look how Arundel went last week.

You can't deny that there is going to be a LOT more hunger in this side than last week's. Desire to prove oneself can be a potent catalyst. As long as the interaction between the guys results in synergistic play and the overall strategy isn't fossilised, conservative bullshit, this could be a hell of a game.

 

[Welsh Exile]

We should be doing this as well to be honest but Pivac is so desperate for results that I think he's binned off preparing for the WC.

 

[Eleutherarch]

We should be doing this as well to be honest but Pivac is so desperate for results that I think he's binned off preparing for the WC.

There is still some time for Wales but you're right. It does take courage. This is why I respect Dave Rennie and what he's done with the Wallabies. Fronting up to the ABs with a bunch of guys still wet behind the ears and you know what? I don't think they've embarrassed themselves at all on the whole. Fearless and longsighted man who has, at least to my eyes, shied away from taking the expedient options.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Hello Thomas, you may call me the Oracle.

14 changes to the Springboks in the starting xv. Only Etzebeth stays. Stars on debuts:
1 Du Toit
2 Dweba
3 Nyakane
4 Etzebeth
5 Orie
6 Coetzee
7 PSDT
8 Roos *
9 Hendrikse
10 Pollard
11 Fassi
12 Esterhuizen
13 Kriel
14 Arendse *
15 Gelant

16 Marx
17 Mchunu *
18 Koch
19 Nortje *
20 Fourie *
21 Elstadt
22 Williams *
23 Willemse

I'm intrigued. I don't understand it but certainly some dice has been rolled. Why not drip feed new players if we were looking at blooding this amount of players? And its not 14 changes, that bench also only retains 3 players in Marx, Koch and Willemse. This is a massive chancing of the arm. Even theough we are going deep in a few positions half of those I'd argue are improvements ITO form or at least equal enough and I suppose some of those "new" faces are actually very experienced players. Apart from allowing for some measure of rust and/or lack of combinations and time together I am actually massively pro this line-up... no, more so, I'm applauding stepping away from some players (though I suppose it'll only be temporary?).. though I'd still have preferred a more measured approach across the series than going super off form and conservative game 1 and then totally off script game 2. I don't get the rationale. Surely there is a core of players and you want to introduce new players into that piece-meal. Now we don't have ANY continuity and you can't actually gauge players' relatively position too each other as these are totally different sides rather than 2 or 3 new players in roughly the same side. Mental! Also, borderline disrespectful so you just know Wales will have extra motivation as if they needed it. If they lose now it'd be against a SA 'A' side essentially. Also, still not a fan of Orie. Even as a Stormers supporter I'd rather back Nortje as a player that might in time stand alongside the trio of Etzebeth, Snyman and De Jager. Why not play Mostert now as an experienced #5 lock and slotted in Coetzee last game so you have the benefit of experience and players playing in position across both games?

I'll take it though if it means a cap for Roos and Fourie and a return for Gelant. We have 3 fullbacks in the back three. Think we are going to see a continuation of the aerial bombardment?

Going 4 deep at loosehead is a massive statement and one I deem unnecessary and I hope doesn't come back to chuck some egg on our faces. If we were giving out caps willy-nilly I'd have sprung for Sadie at tight-head rather. I'd rather be 4 deep at tight-head keeping in mind Nyakane can pack down at 1 and will be that option in our RWC squad.

Happy to give Dweba a go (especially as he is now a Stormers player LOL) though I feel for Marx. Man must be feeling it. Too harsh.

Our backrow and Fourie on the bench is what sells this for me alongside the halves. If Elstadt were starting or Mostert and/or Kolisi was there I'd be crying foul!

 

[Welsh Exile]

There is still some time for Wales but you're right. It does take courage. This is why I respect Dave Rennie and what he's done with the Wallabies. Fronting up to the ABs with a bunch of guys still wet behind the ears and you know what? I don't think they've embarrassed themselves at all on the whole. Fearless and longsighted man who has, at least to my eyes, shied away from taking the expedient options.

Totally agree. I appreciate it's a tough situation for Pivac as he's in a results business at the end of the day, but if your job is safe after losing at home to Italy, you'd think he'd had been forgiven for taking a less experienced squad out and lost the series 3-0. Only he knows the conversations and stuff he's had with the big wigs I suppose.

There were some strange omissions for me though. I would've thought he'd take someone like Seb Davies out. A player who's played recently and done pretty well and Pivac himself has spoken about the whole lock at 6 player he's looking for. Seb has got bags of ball skills like a modern day lock should have but his main criticism has been not carrying his weight and whether he's physical enough at this level, well what better test of that can you have than playing a 3 match test series in South Africa? I mean, is Dan Lydiate going to the WC? Maybe he is but that's crazy to me and I LOVE Dan Lydiate. Then you've got ommisions of genuinely exciting players like Jac Morgan who's only recently won his first couple of caps but misses out for apparently not being physical enough even though he was up there for turnovers in the whole URC.

I'm ranting now but I'm glad these changes have happened, adds a bit more spice and intrigue for the week. I wonder how we'll respond?

 

[Eleutherarch]

Totally agree. I appreciate it's a tough situation for Pivac as he's in a results business at the end of the day, but if your job is safe after losing at home to Italy, you'd think he'd had been forgiven for taking a less experienced squad out and lost the series 3-0. Only he knows the conversations and stuff he's had with the big wigs I suppose.

There were some strange omissions for me though. I would've thought he'd take someone like Seb Davies out. A player who's played recently and done pretty well and Pivac himself has spoken about the whole lock at 6 player he's looking for. Seb has got bags of ball skills like a modern day lock should have but his main criticism has been not carrying his weight and whether he's physical enough at this level, well what better test of that can you have than playing a 3 match test series in South Africa? I mean, is Dan Lydiate going to the WC? Maybe he is but that's crazy to me and I LOVE Dan Lydiate. Then you've got ommisions of genuinely exciting players like Jac Morgan who's only recently won his first couple of caps but misses out for apparently not being physical enough even though he was up there for turnovers in the whole URC.

I'm ranting now but I'm glad these changes have happened, adds a bit more spice and intrigue for the week. I wonder how we'll respond?

It's a weird and somewhat stupid criticism, the old "he ain't physical enough" thing. I can understand if a guy gets absolutely smashed and confidence is shattered irreparably. But usually, it seems to get tossed at guys who think "Yeah, perhaps I'm not going to run at that meatgrinding wall for the 47th time for absolutely no gain. There might be a better way". Sucks.

Mostert is more slender and usually paired with one of the giants. Doesn't seem to hinder him.

I'm a layperson though. Stuff is not necessarily gonna make sense to me.

 

[unrated]

Relax

So long as the Boks box-kick the ball to Wales you will always have a chance. Springboks are by far the worst tier 1 side in the world at the moment. Saturday's performance was the worst first half of Springbok rugby I have seen since 1992 and I have watched pretty much every single SA test in the last 30 years.

Just stay calm gather the ball from Faf and go forwards.

Boks are ridiculous now.

Since when has any ball sport been won by gifting away possession?

Since always for the Springboks and three world champions later. We litterally openly embrace the fact that we like to play without the ball. Most South Africa coaches and this has been this way for years believe that its better if you dont have the ball and you are in the opponents half vs having the ball to play with but in your own half. If you find yourself with the ball in your half kick it to the opposition as we have trust that our defence can force penalties and turnovers. Rugby is a game where not having the ball can be a very strong strategy. Its the Springbok DNA and who are we to doubt the current WC coaches?

With that said I agree it was a bad first half performance. Our kicking game was useless. Our forwards also struggled to gain any forward dominance.

 

[unrated]

I will never not call you the Oracle from this moment onwards, Oracle.

Wow. Little lost for words. No way did Nienaber arrive at this team on his own but happy all the same. It's going to be odd (and a challenge I may add) to watch this test, trying to concentrate hard on almost every position for once to see how each player is going. I wouldn't mind that much if they lost - this was so necessary.

I'm gonna have to watch this several times. Pivac is going to have his work cut out for him - no one expected this (with the exception of the Oracle, but that goes without saying).

This Lineup makes me so happy. The Loose Trio, the flair in the backs, this is rugby porn for us Springbok fans. All out wishes have been answered.


The third test they can take the best performing players from both teams and put them in one team! Hope these players make Nienaber proud so that they have a better chance of gaining trust and fighting for first-choice positions.

 

[Eleutherarch]

We litterally openly embrace the fact that we like to play without the ball.

Rugby is a game where not having the ball can be a very strong strategy. Its the Springbok DNA and who are we to doubt the current WC coaches?

Exactly this. There are so many ways to play this game and I don't understand why SA are demonised. I enjoy watching lots of different styles of rugby. The scything, expansive, offloading style of NZ; the frenetic, must-have-had-a-line-of-something-white, hundred pass a minute style of Japan; the pure cham-porn of France, etc . . .

I'm going to be honest, I get off on seeing the technical aspect of SA rugby. To me, there is something primal about seeing a 9 hunch down like a Cossack, two-stepping and launching the ball high. I love seeing the ball hang in the air. It's solipsistic - nothing exists outside of the ball at the peak of its trajectory. Then it begins to fall, the lines advancing inexorably, and capped off with a gladiatorial tussle in the air for the highball, with the combatants swept away by a tsunami of bodies as their feet touch the ground.

That **** is exciting to me on TV and even better seeing it live. It's a spectacle. I get not everyone likes it - fair enough. But it's as valid as any other way to play the game.

 

[Eleutherarch]

This Lineup makes me so happy. The Loose Trio, the flair in the backs, this is rugby porn for us Springbok fans. All out wishes have been answered.


The third test they can take the best performing players from both teams and put them in one team! Hope these players make Nienaber proud so that they have a better chance of gaining trust and fighting for first-choice positions.

It is gonna be great to see even if it's not polished. The third test will be a super interesting one from the perspective of team composition. Have to see whether they go the Lego block approach though. For example, either both DDA and Am or neither.

 

[saulan]

Interesting point noted on Twitter. This team isn't completely unfamiliar with each other. 1, 10,12, 13 and 15 all started against England in the 2014 U20 side, with Dweba on the bench (and apparently Marx out injured). Interestingly Duhan VDM was also on the bench in this game.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I can't see any changes and I wouldn't blame Pivac if he didn't make any. I guess one of the advantages we have now is that team has minutes in their legs and have a bit of continuity so you don't want to negate that advantage by making 4 or 5 changes.

Having said that Navidi always starts for me but Reffell did pretty well last week. Excited about Lake as a prospect and he's in better form than Elias but I'd keep him on the bench. Elias has been pretty consistent recently (even his darts aren't as shaky as they were but still not great)

 

[MikeTheNative]

I'd put Navidi in instead of Lydiate, offers much more of a attacking threat and a lot better at the breakdown in defence.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Interesting point noted on Twitter. This team isn't completely unfamiliar with each other. 1, 10,12, 13 and 15 all started against England in the 2014 U20 side, with Dweba on the bench (and apparently Marx out injured). Interestingly Duhan VDM was also on the bench in this game.

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I spotted the 10/12/13 combination from way back when. Remember TdT as well. I did not know Gelant especially but then also Marx and Dweba were part of that crop as well. Very interesting.

 

[Welsh Exile]

The WOL are going pretty hard with the SA are disrespecting us stuff. Gareth Edwards coming out now saying they're devaluing the series. I mean, I guess they are but they're probably still favourites so it's not really disrespectful if they smash us is it? Should just wait until after the game, if we win then we can chat some **** but I'd prefer to keep heads down and crack on. To be fair that's what they're doing in camp and I can't imagine Pivac is going to mention anything about disrespect in his press conference tomorrow.