[RWC2023] Wales vs Fiji (10/09/2023)

[Derpus]

I'd put current state England down to 14 men for the entire game comfortably beating what has looked like a decent enough Argentina based on URC form as an upset.

Seems a stretch.

 

[saulan]

Seems a stretch.

Is it? Last time those two teams met England played at home and lost, and Argentina were the higher ranked of the two teams.

Also Fiji vs England.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

English people irate in here when it's literally one of their faults...

What grates me is that there's still no hard rule when it comes to consistent infringements. Wales got away with more than most yesterday and also got away with a cynical offside before Botia's yellow. I think Fiji were so effective against 14 that it's safe to say Botia (who had a huge cameo on his return to the pitch) would never have been in the position to get yellow carded. I think it's about 75% likely that that's your 7 point (minimum) turnaround right there and then, although Fiji upped the gears with backs against the wall so who knows.

Wales red zone defence up to the hour mark ended up winning them that game, I don't think Fiji effectively attacked but Wales were ferocious. Despite the refereeing Fiji should have won the game so they won't be happy at all.

I don't like attacking referees too much on mistakes (outside the heat of the moment anyway) but I do have a bad taste in my mouth after that one. Carley showed fairly obvious bias in how he conversed with both teams, he called Welsh players by their first name but not Fiji's and afforded far more in depth explanations to Wales and it translated into his decisions for me also.

Nothing against Wales though, they played the game, built a lead and held on. I know anyone looking to make a run at the cup know they need a bit of luck with referees, that's the game right now but improvement is needed from WR there.

 

[BPM]

I thought Nick Tompkins was sensational and the partnership with North works. We should've snapped him when we had the chance

I agree although we shouldn't have to snap up a player born and bred in England who didn't even know he was Welsh and got called 'Neil' at his first Wales camp.

 

[BPM]

FWIW, I don't think it would take more than a cursory look through Premiership threads to see English fans consistently criticising Carley. He is awful.

Dickson is terrible too but Carley is chippy and superior with it which only enhances how bad he is.

 

[Crash Hamster]

English people irate in here when it's literally one of their faults...

What grates me is that there's still no hard rule when it comes to consistent infringements. Wales got away with more than most yesterday and also got away with a cynical offside before Botia's yellow. I think Fiji were so effective against 14 that it's safe to say Botia (who had a huge cameo on his return to the pitch) would never have been in the position to get yellow carded. I think it's about 75% likely that that's your 7 point (minimum) turnaround right there and then, although Fiji upped the gears with backs against the wall so who knows.

Wales red zone defence up to the hour mark ended up winning them that game, I don't think Fiji effectively attacked but Wales were ferocious. Despite the refereeing Fiji should have won the game so they won't be happy at all.

I don't like attacking referees too much on mistakes (outside the heat of the moment anyway) but I do have a bad taste in my mouth after that one. Carley showed fairly obvious bias in how he conversed with both teams, he called Welsh players by their first name but not Fiji's and afforded far more in depth explanations to Wales and it translated into his decisions for me also.

Nothing against Wales though, they played the game, built a lead and held on. I know anyone looking to make a run at the cup know they need a bit of luck with referees, that's the game right now but improvement is needed from WR there.

The (two) no arms tackle(s) on the Fijian prop in the first half as he crossed the line and dropped the ball (yellow card(s) and penalty try) would have made the difference, let alone Williams' non-yellow in the second half 5m from his own line.

The first one was reviewed and still deemed to be an attempt at a fair tackle and then waved away. That's not a heat-of-the-moment mistake and I'm not sure anyone outside Cardy World (TM) saw that as a fair tackle. Not a single Welsh poster would have felt hard done by if it had been given as a yellow and seven. Completely inexplicable.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

The (two) no arms tackle(s) on the Fijian prop in the first half as he crossed the line and dropped the ball (yellow card(s) and penalty try) would have made the difference, let alone Williams' non-yellow in the second half 5m from his own line.

The first one was reviewed and still deemed to be an attempt at a fair tackle and then waved away. That's not a heat-of-the-moment mistake and I'm not sure anyone outside Cardy World (TM) saw that as a fair tackle. Not a single Welsh poster would have felt hard done by if it had been given as a yellow and seven. Completely inexplicable.

Agreed, forgot that this morning.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't think it was a PT tbh, as I think Rowland's tackle was legal so not a definite try stopper, but it's definitely a yellow for Elias (who went on to score minutes later)
Think the worst was Biggar on the wrong side of the ruck tackling the 9 2m out, that's a yellow in that position regardless of how many final warnings you're on

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I don't think it was a PT tbh, as I think Rowland's tackle was legal so not a definite try stopper, but it's definitely a yellow for Elias (who went on to score minutes later)
Think the worst was Biggar on the wrong side of the ruck tackling the 9 2m out, that's a yellow in that position regardless of how many final warnings you're on

I think this is the crux of it. It's not that Wales were committing small, repeated infringements and only getting warnings. They were committing repeated infringements that in themselves were worthy of yellows regardless of the team warning and didn't get fully punished for them either. It's like they are doubly getting away with it and it's a consistent theme, Wales are one of the most cynical side defending their own try line yet so rarely get carded. I did see some stats somewhere which showed the rate at which Wales are carded is some way below that of other nations (eg being one of the few teams to not get a red card in a year despite multiple red card level offenses, including I recall 2 high tackles worse than one an English player got carded for that same game that instead went completely unpunished).

Not suggesting anything corrupt of course, just insane luck but it is happening quite a lot. I don't think anyone can claim Wales don't actually infringe as much as other teams as they very clearly do.

 

[Derpus]

Im now fully expecting Wales to get rooted by the next ref they have (in a gimme) and Aus to get rooted by the ref in the next match against Fiji - given the backlash.

The rugby gods constantly conspire against me.

 

[Which Tyler]

So didn't see it but was Fiji really robbed or neutrals just wanted to see a Fiji win over the filthy sheep shaggers?

No anti-Wales feelings from me.
Fiji had it in their hands to take the ref out of it, but he bottled a clear card for head-on-head by Biggar, disallowed a Fijian try that should have been a penalty try + yellow, disallowed another debatable Fijian try, allowed Wales carte-blanche for offside within 5m of their line, issuing 3 final warnings, but never doing anything else about it.

Wales really should have had another 3 yellow cards, possibly more.
Of course, had they received them, the game would have played out differently, but the difference was less than 1 score, and the ref wrongly rules out 1 score, debatably wrong on another disallowance, and missing 3 clear yellows (without counting any for repeat infringements)...
In the calm of the following day, the ref still handed that game to Wales.

Which I really don't want to be seen as taking anything away from Wales - they played really well, and kept doing what the ref was allowing them to - cheating is an integral and proud rugby tradition.

Do casual/new fans understand how and why Fiji got screwed so badly? We're all over it but we all watch way too much rugby as it is. WR probably thinks it's great that it created an exciting match.

I'd count my wife as a casual fan - she's never played, has watched 7s at 2 olympics, and very recently started watching women's rugby, has seen about 3 rugby matches ever pitchside, this must be about the 6thish mens match (certainly <10) she's actually watched, rather than been in the same room whilst on.
She was angrier than I was, calling Carley racist, and later "bought and paid for" by the Welsh.

n=1 and all that, but she's a casual fan, and I got snapped at for making excuses for Carley initially

 

[Rinkadink]

calling Carley racist, and later "bought and paid for" by the Welsh

Sounds like a well balanced and reasonable response.

Imagine a fairly new poster coming here and typing similar.

 

[Derpus]

No anti-Wales feelings from me.
Fiji had it in their hands to take the ref out of it, but he bottled a clear card for head-on-head by Biggar, disallowed a Fijian try that should have been a penalty try + yellow, disallowed another debatable Fijian try, allowed Wales carte-blanche for offside within 5m of their line, issuing 3 final warnings, but never doing anything else about it.

Wales really should have had another 3 yellow cards, possibly more.
Of course, had they received them, the game would have played out differently, but the difference was less than 1 score, and the ref wrongly rules out 1 score, debatably wrong on another disallowance, and missing 3 clear yellows (without counting any for repeat infringements)...
In the calm of the following day, the ref still handed that game to Wales.

Which I really don't want to be seen as taking anything away from Wales - they played really well, and kept doing what the ref was allowing them to - cheating is an integral and proud rugby tradition.


I'd count my wife as a casual fan - she's never played, has watched 7s at 2 olympics, and very recently started watching women's rugby, has seen about 3 rugby matches ever pitchside, this must be about the 6thish mens match (certainly <10) she's actually watched, rather than been in the same room whilst on.
She was angrier than I was, calling Carley racist, and later "bought and paid for" by the Welsh.

n=1 and all that, but she's a casual fan, and I got snapped at for making excuses for Carley initially

Yeah sounds pretty bad.

 

[MattGaff]

One thing reading posts on this forum, is that there aren't any non-Welsh neutral fans when it comes to Wales playing - especially in home nations supporters. I also usually support the underdogs but since so many hark on about rankings these days... weren't Wales the underdogs? Anyway, moot point... not asking any of you to support Wales, but I can sense the seething frustration by many of you about how that match went down.
For me, glad we won. And ALL of you would be the same if it was your team in these circumstances.
For any of you who have played the game.. I remember playing in high temps and its not fun at all. Now replace your opposition with quality, powerful, fast Fijians - where you make close to 250 tackles in a game and tell me how that works out. I've played against an Army side full of Fijians and everything hurt. Like hell. They are true warriors. Im pretty sure I blacked out a few times as well.

That said... the Fiji Yellow card. I was embarrassed it happened that way. Especially after what Wales got away with in the previous 22. The only thing I can think was going through his (ref's) mind is that Wales were in too strong of a moving maul where the try was highly probable. Still, I would have been more than happy with just a penalty.

The ruck... its a mess. You could prob find cause for a penalty in most rucks these days. Sealing off, from the side. Goes for both sides.

Gareth Davies incident - penalty yes. Injured, prob not. BUT, if you don't go down how do you get attention from the officials. FWIW, I don't like seeing it, again embarrassing but I can understand why players do it.

Fiji in general. Maybe because Muntz was injured but with the penalties they were getting and kicking for corner only to lose possession, any other team goes for 3 points. We know how important it is to keep the scoreboard ticking over. Many times they had opportunity for points and turned that option down. Also, they didn't really challenge our line out, given that we are one of the worst teams in that area lately, I thought they would try to pressurise our throw ins a bit more. Take away the (arguable) ref decisions and this is Fiji's main downfall IMO. Tactical awareness.
However, when that last pass of the game was in the air... my first thought was "I hope they miss the conversion". I didn't cheer the knock on, rather held my hands to my face. And Knew... Wales (we) got away with that one in a massive way.

Hard luck on Fiji I know, but I really do hope they get out of the group (as long as its not to the detriment of Wales of course).

 

[General Melchett]

Congrats to Wales for hanging on to grab the win.

Not specific to this match thread but I'm looking forward to the day when artificial intelligence replaces the following:

1. TMO
2. On field officials
3. Selective TV Directors
4. World Rugby

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

One thing reading posts on this forum, is that there aren't any non-Welsh neutral fans when it comes to Wales playing - especially in home nations supporters. I also usually support the underdogs but since so many hark on about rankings these days... weren't Wales the underdogs? Anyway, moot point... not asking any of you to support Wales, but I can sense the seething frustration by many of you about how that match went down.
For me, glad we won. And ALL of you would be the same if it was your team in these circumstances.
For any of you who have played the game.. I remember playing in high temps and its not fun at all. Now replace your opposition with quality, powerful, fast Fijians - where you make close to 250 tackles in a game and tell me how that works out. I've played against an Army side full of Fijians and everything hurt. Like hell. They are true warriors. Im pretty sure I blacked out a few times as well.

That said... the Fiji Yellow card. I was embarrassed it happened that way. Especially after what Wales got away with in the previous 22. The only thing I can think was going through his (ref's) mind is that Wales were in too strong of a moving maul where the try was highly probable. Still, I would have been more than happy with just a penalty.

The ruck... its a mess. You could prob find cause for a penalty in most rucks these days. Sealing off, from the side. Goes for both sides.

Gareth Davies incident - penalty yes. Injured, prob not. BUT, if you don't go down how do you get attention from the officials. FWIW, I don't like seeing it, again embarrassing but I can understand why players do it.

Fiji in general. Maybe because Muntz was injured but with the penalties they were getting and kicking for corner only to lose possession, any other team goes for 3 points. We know how important it is to keep the scoreboard ticking over. Many times they had opportunity for points and turned that option down. Also, they didn't really challenge our line out, given that we are one of the worst teams in that area lately, I thought they would try to pressurise our throw ins a bit more. Take away the (arguable) ref decisions and this is Fiji's main downfall IMO. Tactical awareness.
However, when that last pass of the game was in the air... my first thought was "I hope they miss the conversion". I didn't cheer the knock on, rather held my hands to my face. And Knew... Wales (we) got away with that one in a massive way.

Hard luck on Fiji I know, but I really do hope they get out of the group (as long as its not to the detriment of Wales of course).

Wales definitely get the brunt of it on this forum. It's something I've tried to take into account when posting.

I wanted Fiji to win, they play more entertaining rugby, absolutely no denying that. But I try to keep my digs consistent with what I would for other teams, apart from Scotland, I'm way harsher on those guys.

 

[MattGaff]

Wales definitely get the brunt of it on this forum. It's something I've tried to take into account when posting.

I wanted Fiji to win, they play more entertaining rugby, absolutely no denying that. But I try to keep my digs consistent with what I would for other teams, apart from Scotland, I'm way harsher on those guys.

To an extent, I get it. We don't make many friends with the way we play and I at the best of times wish a lot of my fellow country men wouldn't throw stones inside our small glass house. I do hope we could win a big profile match at some point without an ounce of scrutiny or talking points. But there's always something. I will always take the win no matter what but for once just for it to be 100% deserved without any controversy.

 

[Which Tyler]

Wales definitely get the brunt of it on this forum. It's something I've tried to take into account when posting.

I wanted Fiji to win, they play more entertaining rugby, absolutely no denying that. But I try to keep my digs consistent with what I would for other teams

Yeah, I'm pretty neutral on Wales, and try to stick with what's happening in front of me.
I'm also usually of the opinion that ref.s have an impossible job, and are usually one of the best performers on the pitch. I'm generally of the opinion that things get outright missed, and that's fine, or get seen and considered immaterial, and that's fine too.

Yesterday got to me though - and now that it's today, and I'm still ****** off on behalf of Fiji. Most of the individual incidences I'm okay with chalking off as things that happen, but it was the repeated way they seemed to massively favour one side.




The other factor, of course, is that negatives always get accentuated.
A "well done Wales, the better team won, no questions asked" post will tend to be one post, with little analysis.
Whilst something like last night, will get a LOT of analysis, and a LOT of posts, by the same posters, expressing their displeasure, and the reasons for their displeasure.

As I'm currently doing that againt this morning, I also want to repeat - my unhappiness about yesterday is in no way a criticism of Wales (well, maybe the time wasting). Wales played well, and played the ref well. My criticism is pretty much entirely for the officials. But I get how seeing A LOT of that will put Welsh backs up, and feel that you're not getting credit.

 

[Groundhog]

I have zero ill will towards Wales for being the beneficiary of some bad decisions, and being honest I think every Welsh fan I've seen has had pretty honest and balanced takes on what happened. If Ireland had won in that fashion I'd still be delighted we won!!

Fiji still could/should have won that one at the death if that ball goes to hand.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

One thing reading posts on this forum, is that there aren't any non-Welsh neutral fans when it comes to Wales playing - especially in home nations supporters. I also usually support the underdogs but since so many hark on about rankings these days... weren't Wales the underdogs? Anyway, moot point... not asking any of you to support Wales, but I can sense the seething frustration by many of you about how that match went down.

Really? The anti Wales card? People are not frustrated because Wales won. People are frustrated because the referee butchered what was until that point an amazing game. Fiji was throwing everything but the sink and failed to score (speculation from my side, granted) because of Wales' incessant infringements, any of which alone could have been a YC in itself. What does the ref do? Gives em a warning. Next thing you know tables turn and Fiji gets a very different treatment.

He singlehandedly ruined it. In fact, he went out of his way to do so.
I get it, people make mistakes. My father once put salt on his coffee. That's a mistake. This was a catastrophe. This wasn't a one-off incident either. It was a concatenation of events, (almost) all of them favouring one side and punishing the other.

These guys don't get to play the 6N or TRC every year. This is it for them. And sure, even after all of that Fiji still managed to create a shot for themselves and blew it. That is however not the point.