[RWC2023 SF2] England vs South Africa (21/10/2023)

[McTallshort]

Love how big tournaments always bring a fresh batch of dickheads to the forum

 

[BPM]

Well Dupont, Jalibert, Mauvaka, Ntamack, Penaud, Gros, Woki, Marchand, Jelonch, Ramos were all part of those U20 teams, so U20 success must have some sort of meaning
At least in countries where rugby boards are doing their job. I'll be chauvinistic, FFR has been doing an excellent job for a while. In my opinion, that shows in the depth of talent, but there are different models and we can agree to disagree.
Any name for 12 and 13, apart from Kelly who has one cap ?

Yeah, I think you've hit the nail on the head there. U20s is an excellent route if the pathway to senior rugby is properly managed.

Our up and coming centres are Dan Kelly, Seb Atkinson (Gloucester) and Olly Hartley (Saracens) at 12 and Will Joseph (Harlequins) and Max Ojomoh (Bath) at 13. Perhaps not an obviously stellar group, but I think one or two will develop in to good test level centres. My money would be on Kelly and Joseph.

 

[Lé Ddanno]

If it's not on tape then he'll probably get away with an explanation like that which is possible. But not shaking Tim's hand at the end? Not that that is a citable offence.

If you won't shake Tim Curry's hand you have no soul

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

If it's not on tape then he'll probably get away with an explanation like that which is possible. But not shaking Tim's hand at the end? Not that that is a citable offence.

Would you shake the hand of someone who effectively called you a racist. Come to think of it if Curry truly believed what he said and it wasn't just gamesmanship why would he want to shake Bongi's hand? I don't think we should try to read to much into anything at this stage. Sure the truth will come out.

 

[Yulia]

If you won't shake Tim Curry's hand you have no soul

He's Tom,not Tim
Upd: you're kidding,I guess...

 

[saulan]

Would you shake the hand of someone who effectively called you a racist.

This. But especially for a South African with all our history around race. You just need to look at the last World Cup and the Bomb Squad incident to see how incredibly sensitive we are on issues of racism. Accusing a South African of being racist (or racially slurring) when they aren't/didn't is a pretty significant insult - add in the heat of the moment of that game, I'm not surprised he didn't want to shake his hand.

It's not something that is just washed away at the final whistle. it's a significant question of his character that doesn't go away when the final whistle goes (clearly, look at how it is going in the media/social media).

 

[g6mcg]

Eh, if he heard Curry's question to the ref wouldn't he have said "I said X, not Y"? Perhaps a teammate relayed it to him later.

 

[nicb_wrld]

Love how big tournaments always bring a fresh batch of dickheads to the forum

Don't panic, you'll always be the king..

 

[Lé Ddanno]

He's Tom,not Tim
Upd: you're kidding,I guess...

 

[Which Tyler]

He's Tom,not Tim
Upd: you're kidding,I guess...

They all float down here, my sweet transvestite

 

[Wichita]

Yeah, I think you've hit the nail on the head there. U20s is an excellent route if the pathway to senior rugby is properly managed.

Our up and coming centres are Dan Kelly, Seb Atkinson (Gloucester) and Olly Hartley (Saracens) at 12 and Will Joseph (Harlequins) and Max Ojomoh (Bath) at 13. Perhaps not an obviously stellar group, but I think one or two will develop in to good test level centres. My money would be on Kelly and Joseph.

Yes, I think I saw Joseph play with Harlequins, he is the younger brother of Jonathan if I remember well.
In France, the U20 team is the primary channel to develop high level players, 70% of the A team were involved in U20 competitions to some extent, but I can understand there are other channels. The Baby Blacks used to be the primary development channel for the AB, but their recent teams have been so so and the SA have never performed at that level, so clubs might be a priority to develop young players.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Would you shake the hand of someone who effectively called you a racist. Come to think of it if Curry truly believed what he said and it wasn't just gamesmanship why would he want to shake Bongi's hand? I don't think we should try to read to much into anything at this stage. Sure the truth will come out.

The other way to look at it is what happens on the field stays on the field. Let the citing officer deal with it. If Tom was willing to let bygones be bygones after the game why wouldn't Bongi?

 

[ncurd]

This. But especially for a South African with all our history around race. You just need to look at the last World Cup and the Bomb Squad incident to see how incredibly sensitive we are on issues of racism. Accusing a South African of being racist (or racially slurring) when they aren't/didn't is a pretty significant insult - add in the heat of the moment of that game, I'm not surprised he didn't want to shake his hand.

It's not something that is just washed away at the final whistle. it's a significant question of his character that doesn't go away when the final whistle goes (clearly, look at how it is going in the media/social media).

SA doesn't have great recent history either they tied themselves in knots over BLM in solidarity of over the police murdering a black person because players refused. And honestly from the outside in it looked like people stretching for excuses.

And similar is here people are trying to explain but we've heard no official explanation. I'm hoping for an sensible explanation but none has been given other than speculation.

 

[ncurd]

Come to think of it if Curry truly believed what he said and it wasn't just gamesmanship why would he want to shake Bongi's hand?

Cmon this is disgusting. Accussing someone of gamesmanship over this?

Look Tom may misheard or misinterpreted but you don't walk up to the referee with that kind of accusation without being sure it's what you heard. Tom's never come across as that kind of player or person. Accusing the opposition of gamesmanship over a racial slur accusation, sorry if the shoe was on the other foot and I said suggested Bongi was just doing gamesmanship everyone would be stomping up and down on me and rightly so.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

If anyone on that side's not going to be befuddled by a South African accent, as well

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Cmon this is disgusting. Accussing someone of gamesmanship over this?

Look Tom may misheard or misinterpreted but you don't walk up to the referee with that kind of accusation without being sure it's what you heard. Tom's never come across as that kind of player or person. Accusing the opposition of gamesmanship over a racial slur accusation, sorry if the shoe was on the other foot and I said suggested Bongi was just doing gamesmanship everyone would be stomping up and down on me and rightly so.

The thought just occurred to me why the hell would you put your hand out. Of course everything is just speculation. Some things are too big to just "leave on the field". I just find it difficult to imagine. Again probably differences in perception.

 

[saulan]

The other way to look at it is what happens on the field stays on the field. Let the citing officer deal with it. If Tom was willing to let bygones be bygones after the game why wouldn't Bongi?

It's a much bigger accusation than something that can just stay on the field. See my post above and see how we are talking on this board for multiple pages about it and is a massive news story in the UK. It was never going to just stay on the field.

I still think what this is was a massive miscommunication and then both teams being in full Aggro argue mode during the game. It will be cleared up in a couple days (either via Mbonambi getting a suspension or it being cleared) - but it's not going to be cleared by a media statement. This is a big accusation and I'm sure everyone is keen on doing it through official channels rather than through the media.

And similar is here people are trying to explain but we've heard no official explanation. I'm hoping for an sensible explanation but none has been given other than speculation.

They've said they'd investigate it, and would engage with individuals from World Rugby on this. I don't think they want to be doing too much to distract their players from next week if they believe it was a miscommunication and also want to keep things in line with the procedures of World Rugby rather than making statements in the media. Curry also refused to comment on it after the game. Borthwick did the same.

 

[BPM]

Cmon this is disgusting. Accussing someone of gamesmanship over this?

Look Tom may misheard or misinterpreted but you don't walk up to the referee with that kind of accusation without being sure it's what you heard. Tom's never come across as that kind of player or person. Accusing the opposition of gamesmanship over a racial slur accusation, sorry if the shoe was on the other foot and I said suggested Bongi was just doing gamesmanship everyone would be stomping up and down on me and rightly so.

I'd really like to think this is all a mistake/lost in translation.

However, Curry is pretty much the definition of a tough, honest player. He absolutely isn't the type to whinge to a ref and definitely isn't going to make something up for 'gamesmanship'.

If his conversation with O'Keefe hadn't been captured on TV, I'm not sure he'd have mentioned it post game.

 

[OldSchoolRugga]

True test match this. Gripping stuff. Come from behind victories are always good to watch. So much character and discipline. The rain had a big impact, and made it interesting.

 

[ncurd]

They've said they'd investigate it, and would engage with individuals from World Rugby on this. I don't think they want to be doing too much to distract their players from next week if they believe it was a miscommunication and also want to keep things in line with the procedures of World Rugby rather than making statements in the media. Curry also refused to comment on it after the game. Borthwick did the same.

I'm happy with how SA are handling it. All I'm saying it the explanation SA supporters are going with has no source of evidence. So we shouldn't take it as writ. Although we can speculate it as a feasible explanation.