[RWC2023 SF2] England vs South Africa (21/10/2023)

[dirty harry]

It should start against Argentina.

Players who we know are going to be there in 2027 or who have a good chance to be there need to play. That means Smith at 10, Dan at hooker, Chessum and Martin in the second row, Arundell on the wing etc…

With no nod to players leaving after such a successful campaign?

 

[General Melchett]

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Reports in SA media saying Mbonambi was referring to the ball being on the white side which would in English literally sound precisely like "white ****", "kant" meaning side. Wit being 1 syllable and Engelse being 3 syllables. Very probable just lost in translation. We'll have to see if there video showing context. Might be Mbonambi dodging but just as easily might be Curry misreading the intention. Question is whether Mbonambi is speaking Afrikaans for the benefit of his team mates or speaking directly at Curry.

I'd like to believe this. But it should be said though that whenever there is an incident like this there is almost always some sort of convenient other string of words which were apparently what the guy was actually saying. Feels too convenient by half to me, but I fully concede that I don't speak Afrikaans so not the best judge...

Just a note on the racism discussion. The fact is that the history of racism is overwhelmingly a story of the oppression of black and people of colour by white people, much of which still remains or has only started to shift recently. Of course there can be descrimination against white people and you find examples of it currently in history - often intersecting with religion - eg oppression of white Christians in parts of the world - but it's not consistently woven into the everyday of history in the same way. Racism against people of colour therefore takes on a totally different timbre, and I don't think it's right to claim that both are exactly the same. They don't invoke the same things. Language is just different as a result, for example if you've ever heard playful jibes aboout "white boys", e.g white boys can't dance, it simply is a bit different, like it or not. Maybe not the best example but I do think it shows how language hasn't developed symmetrically as a result.


Massive BUT coming - where words or slurs relating to colour are used to hurt and insult, regardless of which way round it is, I do think it should be punished with full force.

I hope this doesn't continue to distract from the rugby. Proud of the performance but gutted and struggling to see the future evidence of a blueprint for success as some are seeing.

 

[ncurd]

What are peoples thoughts on the rebuild? All the pundits I've heard are keep the older lads and challenge for the 6N.

Nope let the lads retire on a plucky but sprited perfromance. Holding on is what killed us this cycle.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I don't know if this is the place for it but I'm curious where others think the state of refereeing is in terms of, for want of a better word, tenability - after this cup? It feels like this tournament has seen new levels of questioning and acrimony regarding the officiation of the game. Equally this is always an issue to some degree each world cup. Just not sure if my perception has been warped because of the last few rounds....

There's been a couple of moments in the tournament which you simply can't put a price tag on in terms of the importance of a single decision.

 

[ncurd]

Does anyone have a source on what Mbonambi claim he said?

It's now the 4th highest article on the BBC and they aren't covering it but SA statement. Which suggests it's fan speculation rather than a real attributed fact.

South Africa's Mbonambi accused of racial slur in win

England flanker Tom Curry reported that South Africa hooker Bongi Mbonambi used a racial slur towards him during the Springboks' Rugby World Cup semi-final win.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Jer1cho]

People in SA don't use the C word. We just don't. If Bongi was insulting him he would have called him a poes.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I like how the tackle in that photo is pretty close to the one curry got crucified for vs Fiji

 

[Wasps92]

With no nod to players leaving after such a successful campaign?

Let them finish the game.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

On the other side if has done wrong, NZ shouldn't be playing a player who shouldn't be on the pitch and SA should have time to call up a real hooker (although that's a mistake of their own making). If SA go on to win and he subsequently gets a ban all hell will break lose.

If he does get cited by Monday and then gets found guilty and banned SA won't be able to replace a banned player.

 

[Wichita]

Smith, Kelly, Lawrence, Slade, Marchant (if allowed). Manu has played about 7 games in the last 2 years and is not the force he once was.
Farrell has a very good game last night but hasn't played well for England for years.

I think you are confusing who has started in the WC with irreplaceable players. We don't have many of them anyway

Tuilagi is 32, Slade 30, Lawrence and Marchant would not complement one another well in my opinion, I have never seen Kelly play actually. That's not that deep for a team like England.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Nope let the lads retire on a plucky but sprited perfromance. Holding on is what killed us this cycle.

Agreed, I almost think that should be the policy regardless of how their form shapes up in the next few years. Some people want to see each six nations bring the sole focus but I think we're done with that. A world cup final is worth ten calcutta cups.

 

[LIONSxv]

Tuilagi is 32, Slade 30, Lawrence and Marchant would not complement one another well in my opinion, I have never seen Kelly play actually. That's not that deep for a team like England.

Your getting confused bud, tuilagi is one that would be gone after this w/c fully expect him to retire Friday
I'm not sure what point your trying to make ? Can you spell it out ?

 

[Bada-Bing!]

England 15-16 South Africa: Rugby World Cup semi-final player ratings

Handré Pollard is man of the match from the bench while George Martin, a surprise pick, was inspired in defeat

www.theguardian.com

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I don't know if this is the place for it but I'm curious where others think the state of refereeing is in terms of, for want of a better word, tenability - after this cup? It feels like this tournament has seen new levels of questioning and acrimony regarding the officiation of the game. Equally this is always an issue to some degree each world cup. Just not sure if my perception has been warped because of the last few rounds....

There's been a couple of moments in the tournament which you simply can't put a price tag on in terms of the importance of a single decision.

I think it's public knowledge what South Africans in general have been thinking about the standard of refereeing for quite some time now. It's just I feel like our domestic refereeing has gone backwards as well so kinda like feeling like I can't say that the test game is handled worse than the Currie cup any more and mean it.

 

[Reiser99]

England 15-16 South Africa: Rugby World Cup semi-final player ratings

Handré Pollard is man of the match from the bench while George Martin, a surprise pick, was inspired in defeat

www.theguardian.com

Well that was ******* generous not to give Billy a 1 since he cost us 10 points almost single handedly.

 

[Wichita]

Your getting confused bud, tuilagi is one that would be gone after this w/c fully expect him to retire Friday
I'm not sure what point your trying to make ? Can you spell it out ?

Just read what I wrote, Tuilagi and Slade are not the future and Marchant and Lawrence are not really compatible, so not much depth at center for England in the next two years.

 

[LIONSxv]

Just read what I wrote, Tuilagi and Slade are not the future and Marchant and Lawrence are not really compatible, so not much depth at center for England in the next two years.

What depth have France got outside of Danty and Fickou? who also won't be France's centre pairing at the next WC due to age... Vincent? Moefana ? Neither are any better than Lawrence. The drop off in quality in centre for France is much more dramatic than England as those have been problem positions for years

I can't see the point your trying to make tbh as your saying England will struggle to replace Farrel who was never a centre and Tuilagi who has played 50 odd times in 13 years due to injury. It's a moot point

 

[Wichita]

What depth have France got outside of Danty and Fickou? who also won't be France's centre pairing at the next WC due to age... Vincent? Moefana ? Neither are any better than Lawrence. The drop off in quality in centre for France is much more dramatic than England as those have been problem positions for years

I can't see the point your trying to make tbh as your saying England will struggle to replace Farrel who was never a centre and Tuilagi who has played 50 odd times in 13 years due to injury. It's a moot point

Danty and Fickou still have a few years in front of them, and I am sure you have noticed that France has been U20 world champions in the last 3 editions (2018, 2019, 2023).
Emilien Gailleton (20 yrs old, born in Croydon BTW) was the leading try scorer in Top14 last season, and you will hear about Paul Costes and Nicolas Depoortere soon, the English U20 have already got the word. So I do not think there is a real problem for the future of 10, 12 and 13 for France. Which have never been problem position for France to be honest, 1 and 3 are much better candidates.
Most of the time, the U20 is a good indication of what lays ahead in rugby. But I am all ears if you think you have first rate centers ready to bloom in England.
By the way, there is also a terrific generation of backlines (Nouchi, Gazotti, Jegou and yes, Tuilagi) coming up as well not to mention 9 and 10. Jauneau and Reus.

 

[bapean]

What depth have France got outside of Danty and Fickou? who also won't be France's centre pairing at the next WC due to age... Vincent? Moefana ? Neither are any better than Lawrence. The drop off in quality in centre for France is much more dramatic than England as those have been problem positions for years

I can't see the point your trying to make tbh as your saying England will struggle to replace Farrel who was never a centre and Tuilagi who has played 50 odd times in 13 years due to injury. It's a moot point

Vincent, Depoortere, Gailleton, Costes... Don't worry for France at centre, we have good young lads.

I don't know well the young players in England, but I'm sure you will have some good guys aswell.