[RWC2023 SF2] England vs South Africa (21/10/2023)

[Kiwiwomble]

O'Keefe is a referee who, subconsciously, favours the team that had the momentum when it's a 50-50 call. That isn't unique to O'Keefe though.

id agree with that, and i kind of thin thats what WR want, we see lots of rules or interpretations around favouring the attacking team, i think its viewed as "positive", a defending team does anything wrong then its cynical and must be stamped out

 

[ncurd]

id agree with that, and i kind of thin thats what WR want, we see lots of rules or interpretations around favouring the attacking team, i think its viewed as "positive", a defending team does anything wrong then its cynical and must be stamped out

Yeah except he changed his mind on attacking team in the dying minuites.

BOK just kinda got scrum conned with 2.5 mins to go. Won't be the first or last ref to do it. Nothing to lose sleep over.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Yeah except he changed his mind on attacking team in the dying minuites.

BOK just kinda got scrum conned with 2.5 mins to go. Won't be the first or last ref to do it. Nothing to lose sleep over.

If im honest i think SA were growing on dominance, England were just doing whatever they could to to hold on to a lead, we saw that with the drop goal....dont get me wrong, great drop goal, but England we on the front foot and make meters with ease in the lead up, other teams would have gone for the jugular after rattling SA but instead grabbed the points and walked back to half way

 

[Bada-Bing!]

It's a much bigger accusation than something that can just stay on the field. See my post above and see how we are talking on this board for multiple pages about it and is a massive news story in the UK. It was never going to just stay on the field.

I still think what this is was a massive miscommunication and then both teams being in full Aggro argue mode during the game. It will be cleared up in a couple days (either via Mbonambi getting a suspension or it being cleared) - but it's not going to be cleared by a media statement. This is a big accusation and I'm sure everyone is keen on doing it through official channels rather than through the media.

I personally think Bongi would have known what he said and he intended. If he was being accused of being racist and it was total misunderstanding he should/could have cleared it up at the final whistle. He didn't and refused to shake Tom's hand. Tom was the alleged victim. That for me is an indication of animosity and he did say it and was being obtuse and not being sorry for it.

Now this is all after the incident a plausible explanation can now be brought up especially if there is no recording of him actually saying/mouthing the words or no official heard it. Beyond a reasonable doubt etc. otherwise it comes down to Bongi's word against Tom and we know what's at stake for Bongi.

 

[40/20]

Yes, I think I saw Joseph play with Harlequins, he is the younger brother of Jonathan if I remember well.
In France, the U20 team is the primary channel to develop high level players, 70% of the A team were involved in U20 competitions to some extent, but I can understand there are other channels. The Baby Blacks used to be the primary development channel for the AB, but their recent teams have been so so and the SA have never performed at that level, so clubs might be a priority to develop young players.

Super Rugby has been the main pathway into test footy, but IMO I think NZR has long underestimated the value of a strong U20s program bridging the gap between schoolboy rugby and SR.

As you note, our U20s team hasn't been much chop recently due to the lack of focus at that level and, along with the relative weakening of SR with SA teams no longer participants, that's correlated with the slide at test level.

NZR does appear to be trying to turn things around though by looking to have more control over schoolboy rugby, (trying to) replace the NZ Secondary Schools team with a NZ U18s team so a larger pool of players are eligible, and as part of SANZAAR, kicking off an U20s RC from next year.

Most of that simply brings us in line with the 6N unions so its deeply disappointing we're having to play catch up on something as fundamental as pathways but at least its underway. Hopefully we'll see dividends at the next couple of WCs.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

Super Rugby has been the main pathway into test footy, but IMO I think NZR has long underestimated the value of a strong U20s program bridging the gap between schoolboy rugby and SR.

Yes, and with the departure of SA teams, the strength of SR in general has gone down and we might see the results of this in the coming years

 

[40/20]

Yes, and with the departure of SA teams, the strength of SR in general has gone down and we might see the results of this in the coming years

Oh I think we're already seeing it and it'll be some time before it gets better IMO. Scott Robertson is being viewed as some kind of saviour here, but IMO, there's major questions over whether he can translate his success in a weakened SR to the test arena. Even if he is the super-coach his supporters believe, he can only work with the cattle he's given anyway.

 

[Rinkadink]

This is a big accusation and I'm sure everyone is keen on doing it through official channels rather than through the media.

Right... yet many South Africans are referencing the South African media (which is unsourced AFAIK) who are saying Bongi is innocent and it was something else and Curry, who has plenty of experience with Afrikaans, simply doesn't understand and misheard.

I am prepared to believe that the above is possible but likewise, are those who keep saying it's a misunderstanding prepared to believe that Bongi did indeed racially abuse Curry? At the moment, it looks like many are not even if that's not the intention.

+Please note I'm not referring to you specifically @saulan as I have read your later posts, I am just using that quote to bounce off and give my take regarding the general state of social media in general at the moment. I genuinely hope the whole thing is a misunderstanding but logically I cannot believe Curry would make up an accusation like that. Guess we shall all find out soon enough, I hope it's investigated thoroughly.

 

[Zed]

Great game, England were superb and played to their strengths. But it was them hanging on for dear life and defending like madmen, serious passion and commitment. But I think the right team made the final. If England made the final and the weather's good, it could be a very one-sided and dull game, with the ABs running away with it. And I think the ref did a pretty good job.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Yes, and with the departure of SA teams, the strength of SR in general has gone down and we might see the results of this in the coming years

really though, its hard to say how much weaker super rugby had become, different definitely, but without some sort of club comp we can only judge based on how the international teams cope and the AB's seem to be ok, even a team that has been call the worst AB team since the game went professional is in the final, i would also say fiji's strong showing is built on the Drua getting such exposure

Aussie has been circling the drain for a long time so i dont think that is a result of the SA teams leaving

 

[ncurd]

If im honest i think SA were growing on dominance, England were just doing whatever they could to to hold on to a lead, we saw that with the drop goal....dont get me wrong, great drop goal, but England we on the front foot and make meters with ease in the lead up, other teams would have gone for the jugular after rattling SA but instead grabbed the points and walked back to half way

oh I agree SA we're in ascendancy (well in the scrum, I didn't really see it elsewhere). And I know and understand why BOK got conned.

I was more referring to in that last passage of play after SA took the lead with the call he decided he wasn't blowing up for SA.

Still it's not worth loosing sleep over we had plenty of the opposite calls in the match which he got wrong. Still second week in a row hes made material mistakes especially in the dying minuites and meant to be one the top refs.

I'm not an arrived Englishman I'm more annoyed with out own mistakes that cost 13 points (BV and OF). He made far bigger blunders against the French.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

oh I agree SA we're in ascendancy (well in the scrum, I didn't really see it elsewhere). And I know and understand why BOK got conned.

I was more referring to in that last passage of play after SA took the lead with the call he decided he wasn't blowing up for SA.

Still it's not worth loosing sleep over we had plenty of the opposite calls in the match which he got wrong. Still second week in a row hes made material mistakes especially in the dying minuites and meant to be one the top refs.

I'm not an arrived Englishman I'm more annoyed with out own mistakes that cost 13 points (BV and OF). He made far bigger blunders against the French.

fair

 

[Zed]

Aussie has been circling the drain for a long time so i dont think that is a result of the SA teams leaving

Its a mess at the moment. If we limited Australia to two SR teams we'd still struggle to be competitive. 5? Forget about it. The resources are spread way too thin. SR needs a restructure, but I don't know what that looks like. I think the Pacific teams need to be somehow involved.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Its a mess at the moment. If we limited Australia to two SR teams we'd still struggle to be competitive. 5? Forget about it. The resources are spread way too thin. SR needs a restructure, but I don't know what that looks like. I think the Pacific teams need to be somehow involved.

this is well off topic but being involved with a club in melbourne has changed my perspective a lot

my feeling is unfortunately there is going to be a lot of pain before any gain. I think we're past limiting the aussie teams to fit the talent pool, its too small and i dont think it will grow interest or playing numbers, might have worked in the past when aussie teams were doing ok, keeping them strong is different to making them strong

I think the only way long term is to dilute the NZ teams down to the aussie level and then a competitive comp will drive innovation and over time raise the over all level in NZ/Aus

so aussie keeps its team or at most drops to 4...but NZ goes to like 7 (so 4x aus, 7xNZ, Drua, tonga/samoa, 2xJapanese or argentinian) 15 total, full round robin

personally i dont think NZ can introduce new teams as everyone already has a team so i would carve out the top NPC teams, ditch the super franchises and remake them as fully professional

plus, as you say, a restructure in aus to connect those of us that do enjoy rugby with the higher levels...club games going on at the same time as super/internationals just means theyre making it hard for actual fans, people that spend money on rugby....to watch rugby

 

[Umaga's Witness]

Love how big tournaments always bring a fresh batch of dickheads to the forum

There's always the ignore function. I'm finding it quite amusing seeing people responding, with frustration, to posters I've long ago ignored

 

[Kiwiwomble]

There's always the ignore function. I'm find it quite amusing seeing people responding, with frustration, to posters I've long ago ignored

@Umaga's Witness test test...can you see this?

 

[Derpus]

this is well off topic but being involved with a club in melbourne has changed my perspective a lot

my feeling is unfortunately there is going to be a lot of pain before any gain. I think we're past limiting the aussie teams to fit the talent pool, its too small and i dont think it will grow interest or playing numbers, might have worked in the past when aussie teams were doing ok, keeping them strong is different to making them strong

I think the only way long term is to dilute the NZ teams down to the aussie level and then a competitive comp will drive innovation and over time raise the over all level in NZ/Aus

so aussie keeps its team or at most drops to 4...but NZ goes to like 7 (so 4x aus, 7xNZ, Drua, tonga/samoa, 2xJapanese or argentinian) 15 total, full round robin

personally i dont think NZ can introduce new teams as everyone already has a team so i would carve out the top NPC teams, ditch the super franchises and remake them as fully professional

plus, as you say, a restructure in aus to connect those of us that do enjoy rugby with the higher levels...club games going on at the same time as super/internationals just means theyre making it hard for actual fans, people that spend money on rugby....to watch rugby

Different structure but same fundamental mistakes that SR makes IMO.

But yeah- well off topic.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

So 10am has passed. Looks like no complaint from England on the Bongi issue.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

So 10am has passed. Looks like no complaint from England on the Bongi issue.

If it's anything like the prem rules then it may not matter? Bristol never made a complaint about Marler when he got banned

 

[Bada-Bing!]

If it's anything like the prem rules then it may not matter? Bristol never made a complaint about Marler when he got banned

True; citing officer can bring a charge without a complaint from England.