RWC: All Blacks - Canada (02-10-2011, 15:30)

[ranger]

I forgot to put the arguably in there so, you took it to literally I suppose. I was meaning Henry thought he was good enough to be in there with limited game time.

As for Jimmy, he was in a team getting progressively worse as the season went on, and he was progressively getting worse. **** he might not be able to pick the ball up soon.

Weepu was on when Ellis came on. The rush was still happening the pass just got to him quicker. Weepu was inconsequential he did nothing special. He's a much better halfback than 10.

You think Slade wasn't under pressure, Dan Carter just got injured. The expectations on him were huge. It was his first game as THE MAN I'm sure he will be better for it

Whaat? Weepu was fixing the defense from his first touch of the ball!

No. just.. no to all of this. To all of you as a being and a person capable of forming opinions.
You make my mind confused with your odd logic. I need that for writing essays. Inconsiderate.

 

[JW.]

Whaat? Weepu was fixing the defense from his first touch of the ball!

No. just.. no to all of this. To all of you as a being and a person capable of forming opinions.
You make my mind confused with your odd logic. I need that for writing essays. Inconsiderate.

Hehe.

I'd go for Weepu, he's a coolhead. And thats what you need, you just need someone to spark a little bit of attack, get you in the right places, make his tackles and make the right decisions. You've got all the skill outside of him you need to score try's. I wouldn't trust C.Slade, he might prove me wrong. But it's a shitload of pressure he's under now and can he keep his cool during the match? It only takes one mistake against teams like SA and Australia in the semis and its over.

Still feeling gutted for Carter. He's brilliant.

 

[james5000]

Whaat? Weepu was fixing the defense from his first touch of the ball!

No. just.. no to all of this. To all of you as a being and a person capable of forming opinions.
You make my mind confused with your odd logic. I need that for writing essays. Inconsiderate.

Have some faith, Henry is going to turn chicken **** in to chicken salad.

 

[cardassian]

Cowans a big game player. He will step up when the pressures on. He did time and time again in the super 14 this year and lets not forget, the year is 2011 buddy.

If Cowan's a BIG game player, how come he has been awful for the All Blacks every time this year but good in the super XV?
Seems like he aint up to test level anymore.
Did you see how many times he screwed up the other day?
At the start of the 2nd half 4 out of 5 of his passes went to ground.
That kind of passing will cost us in the big matches, we need a halfback who can get the ball to the 10, not who throws it on the ground and hopes someone cleans up after him.
Add this to the fact that he is slow as frack, both around the park (where he was out of position against Canada for half the game) and he's super slow at getting the ball out of rucks (witness how he had the ball kicked out of his hands while he stood at the ruck thinking about which direction to pass).
On current form Cowan's a liability and if we wanted to start Weepu at 10 a replacement half back needed to be brought in.

 

[Icemn]

To the guys in NZ... how much grip does the world Cup ball have (in the rain) ???

i don't think we have the ball here :?

Was this the 1st game in the WC played in the rain??? the players seem to struggle with the ball :?

i'm not looking for excuses here.. i'm just asking

 

[cardassian]

No i didnt notice that actually..

You need to watch the game again then.
When Cowan was on Weepu made one nice attacking double around, threw a bad pass which resulted in a knock on, read the game bad once resulting in us attacking the wrong way effectively killing off the momentum we had.
Apart from that he caught and passed and made 1 tactical kick.
Hardly a great effort, 1 good thing and 2 bad isn't a pass in my book.

However once Jimmy 'I can't pass' Cowan was off Weepu looked fine at 10.

 

[Canadian_Rugger]

I don't know why you guys have such a hate one for Smith... he didn't play 1 year in the NPC for Southland and 3 years in the top 14 for Montauban for nothing.

 

[Larksea]

People that are against Weepu playing at 10 or saying he's not a 10, there is some truth in the argument. He is mainly a 9 but he has been asked to play 10 at every level of the game and when he has.... he has done well and has never had a bad performance in that position. And he has in fact had some brilliant performances in that at 10. And without a doubt his goal kicking is better than Slade's.

The main thing he will bring to 10 for the AB's when he's used there is his cool head in big games. Weepu is a great player in big games. I honestly just can't imagine him having a bad game. It's all about current ability and experience, with the world cup final just a few weeks away potential counts for nothing.

We don't need Mr. Right we need Mr. Right-Now!

And I tend to thin it is worth losing him at 9, 10 is the most important position on the park. As long as 9 doesn't do anything stupid it's where the game is driven from.

 

[CDN_Rugby]

I don't know why you guys have such a hate one for Smith... he didn't play 1 year in the NPC for Southland and 3 years in the top 14 for Montauban for nothing.

I don't hate Smith. He was a damn good rugby player, but he probably reached his best before date in 2008.

 

[Tricia McMillan]

People that are against Weepu playing at 10 or saying he's not a 10, there is some truth in the argument. He is mainly a 9 but he has been asked to play 10 at every level of the game and when he has.... he has done well and has never had a bad performance in that position. And he has in fact had some brilliant performances in that at 10. And without a doubt his goal kicking is better than Slade's.

The main thing he will bring to 10 for the AB's when he's used there is his cool head in big games. Weepu is a great player in big games. I honestly just can't imagine him having a bad game. It's all about current ability and experience, with the world cup final just a few weeks away potential counts for nothing.

We don't need Mr. Right we need Mr. Right-Now!

And I tend to thin it is worth losing him at 9, 10 is the most important position on the park. As long as 9 doesn't do anything stupid it's where the game is driven from.

Excellently put. I'm all for trying out Weepu at 10 against Argentina. Whether that's in the starting XV or as a second half replacement, I'll leave up to Henry. Yes, Weepu is a better 9 than 10 but if he performs better than Slade at 10 then I'm all for him starting there.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I think people are being overly critical of Slade's performance.
Sure he's no Dan Carter but nobody is.
Also it's hard to shine at 10 when your half back constantly makes terrible passes.
Notice how Weepu only looked good once Cowan was off.
Also if we play Weepu at 10 that means Cowan has to be one of our 9s and he's guaranteed at least 30 mins of terrible ball.
I'd play Weepu at 9 and give him the kicking duties, give Slade ago at 10 with Cruden on the bench and use either Mils or Dagg for kicking when inside our own 20.
Our 10 only needs to shovel the ball to Nonu and as long as our forwards turn up we'll be right.

I thought this too, I thought Weepu look really average in the first ten minutes he was on, running aorund like a headless chook. back behind the maul here, shovelling it on there

But in hindsight it might have been at least partly due to cowen having a really bad day at the office.

Im a big jimmy fan but he is not in form. I think we will see weepu and slade with cowen or ellis on the bench. Weepu can move out one if need be, i just hope he has 80 mins in him.

 

[donmcdazzle]

People that are against Weepu playing at 10 or saying he's not a 10, there is some truth in the argument. He is mainly a 9 but he has been asked to play 10 at every level of the game and when he has.... he has done well and has never had a bad performance in that position. And he has in fact had some brilliant performances in that at 10. And without a doubt his goal kicking is better than Slade's.

The main thing he will bring to 10 for the AB's when he's used there is his cool head in big games. Weepu is a great player in big games. I honestly just can't imagine him having a bad game. It's all about current ability and experience, with the world cup final just a few weeks away potential counts for nothing.

We don't need Mr. Right we need Mr. Right-Now!

And I tend to thin it is worth losing him at 9, 10 is the most important position on the park. As long as 9 doesn't do anything stupid it's where the game is driven from.

Correct. We can't afford to just hope Slade all of a sudden becomes able to handle pressure. We know Weepu can so lets use him. Weepu can run the show from 10. He doesn't need to do anything special at all; just not to freak out and do stupid things like Slade is prone to. I also have much more faith in Weepu creating gaps for Nonu and Smith.

 

[Dizzy]

The more I think about it the more I think Weepu is the key, but not necessarily playing at 10. The more he is on the field the easier it will be for who ever is playing 10. Maybe in the big games he should start and play for as long as needed, even 80min if it's tight - he's looking fit and very trim.

Another key with carter out is to have other players coming in to act as first receiver. We've already seen Kahui do it a lot, in fact he has a lot of experience playing 10 in his early days I think it comes down to Kahui, Dagg, Mills and Nonu to come in and maybe share at least 50% of slades workload as first receiver. IT will take heat off slade and maybe give him the time he needs to find his feet and get into the game, get the confidence he needs. I know with carter so often you see him first receiver play after play after play. It's too much to ask a stand in to do the same.

I also think bringing mills back into the starting 15 is important, you take Dan carters 86 tests of experience out of the backline and it starts to look very thin in that area. Bad News for Jane but 15, Mills. 14, Kahui. 11, Dagg would be a good idea. Kahui is a must have now and Dagg is the xfactor player he just seems bound to create a try or two every game, Jane - good but not so much.


edit: bad news for jane not dagg

No way, if the other players have to give Slade a piggyback ride, it takes that edge out of their own game, and in the big games everyone is going to need to be focussed on what they are doing.

It's like what happened with Thomson, named at 8 and never played there, instead Richie had to piggyback him and that stopped Richie from being as effective.

Where are your stats from? I swear I saw him miss a tackle even though I thought he played well. I have never found a rugby statistics website to be at all reliable.

I think I know exactly what tackle you are talking about. Because I saw it and thought, HOLY S*** SMITH MISSED, and then I saw him hang on to his feet = Tackle Made.

 

[james5000]

People that are against Weepu playing at 10 or saying he's not a 10, there is some truth in the argument. He is mainly a 9 but he has been asked to play 10 at every level of the game and when he has.... he has done well and has never had a bad performance in that position. And he has in fact had some brilliant performances in that at 10. And without a doubt his goal kicking is better than Slade's.

The main thing he will bring to 10 for the AB's when he's used there is his cool head in big games. Weepu is a great player in big games. I honestly just can't imagine him having a bad game. It's all about current ability and experience, with the world cup final just a few weeks away potential counts for nothing.

We don't need Mr. Right we need Mr. Right-Now!

And I tend to thin it is worth losing him at 9, 10 is the most important position on the park. As long as 9 doesn't do anything stupid it's where the game is driven from.

Weepu's experience is really his main advantage over Slade, he's a proven Test performer and Slade isn't.

I disagree that Weepu has proven to be anything better than Slade in the 10 jersey at any level.

Slade could potentially have a good game this weekend and silence all of you, hit me back next week.

I'm not a fan of Slade, but he has been picked as back up for Carter so why deviate from the plan?
I have a serious dislike for Henry, I think he is terribly overrated but surely he wont be so foolish as to deviate from his own plan.

Weepu is not the complete 10 that some of you are making him out to be, but he is very good at 9.

I find it funny when Ranger talks about Slade not having a natural ability to play in a play makers role. If he never had this natural ability, Henry would have been foolish to select him in the squad! Ranger, you are the same guy that defended Henry awhile ago, how do you like him now?

 

[Kiwiwomble]

also, has anyone got the lastest kicking stats (SC?) last time i saw them Slade was kicking the exact same percentage as carter for this year.

 

[donmcdazzle]

also, has anyone got the lastest kicking stats (SC?) last time i saw them Slade was kicking the exact same percentage as carter for this year.

If you're trying to imply Slade is as good as DC as a goal kicker, I'm going to have to stop you right there.

 

[Darwin]

Ok game. Hoping none of the AB's injuries are serious.

The strong scrum performance was good to see; I was surprised how dominant they were at the start of the game with Williams and Whitelock as the locks. Hore played well again - I'd be happy to see him start, but I suspect Mealamu will start. Ali Williams handing again let him down - I counted three times he lost the ball. This seems to happen every game, and is clearly not good enough for a lock - I'm hoping Boric is on the bench ahead of him this week versus Argentina. Read had a solid 50 mins, and Vito played well too (though it certainly helped that Hore was there doing a lot of work at the breakdown). Kaino was the man of the match again for me (for probably the 4th week in a row!). The way he breaks the advantage line, gets tackled, then continues to move forward 5 metres is phenomenal.

I was very disappointed in Cowan performance. His passing was shocking - one poor pass directly lead to a Canadian try. At one stage there were 4 passes in a row that either bounced before the first receiver or were at their ankles. I thought Slade had a pretty solid game. He made one or two errors (as EVERY 10 makes, even Dan Carter!) but you would think by the way many people talk that he made a mistake every time he touched the ball! People here have mentioned that he is simply shovels the ball on in attack, which is a fair criticism, but any many ways Dan Carter plays the same (especially in recent years). If anyone has watched the way that Carter has played in recent years they would notice that he doesn't actually create that much - with the likes of SBW, Nonu, Smith etc directly outside you don't really have to. The strength of Carters game on attack was the way he reads the game, and his low error rate - he does attack the line at times with the ball in hand, but he didn't do this that often (much like Slade). Weepu and Cruden play a very different style - they take the ball to the line more and probably create more indecision in the oppositions backline. Personally I didn't think Weepu looked any better at 10 than Slade - he certainly put the defenders in two minds, but his passing was a bit reckless at times. The problem I have with him is that he (like Cruden/Quade Cooper) always look to run with the ball before passing; this can be good to create space, but if their is already space outside simply 'shoveling on' the ball can be the best option. Something that many people don't take into account is defense, which is an area the Slade excels. I worry a bit about Weepu defense at 10 - he is fine if the players run straight at him, but his lateral defense is a bit suspect. Cruden is a courageous defender, but his lack of size is an issue, and it was very noticeable how narrow the AB's defensive line was last season with Cruden at 10 (Nonu stood much closer to Cruden on defense that he does for Carter/Slade). Personally I would start Weepu at 9 and Slade at 10 versus Argentina (with Weepu obviously doing the goal-kicking), with Cowan and Cruden on the bench, though I wouldn't be against Weepu starting at 10 with Slade on the bench.

SBW played well again - I think he's secured himself a spot on the bench versus Argentina. Muliaina was solid at fullback, and it was great to see Guildford have storming game on the wing. I expected Guildford to have a strong game, as he's been in great form all season (barring a few pressure games). Having genuine pace on the wing is a huge asset, but I suspect that is the last we will see of him this RWC, with Kahui and Jane likely to be back starting next week.

 

[Dizzy]

Ok game. Hoping none of the AB's injuries are serious.

The strong scrum performance was good to see; I was surprised how dominant they were at the start of the game with Williams and Whitelock as the locks. Hore played well again - I'd be happy to see him start, but I suspect Mealamu will start. Ali Williams handing again let him down - I counted three times he lost the ball. This seems to happen every game, and is clearly not good enough for a lock - I'm hoping Boric is on the bench ahead of him this week versus Argentina. Read had a solid 50 mins, and Vito played well too (though it certainly helped that Hore was there doing a lot of work at the breakdown). Kaino was the man of the match again for me (for probably the 4th week in a row!). The way he breaks the advantage line, gets tackled, then continues to move forward 5 metres is phenomenal.

I was very disappointed in Cowan performance. His passing was shocking - one poor pass directly lead to a Canadian try. At one stage there were 4 passes in a row that either bounced before the first receiver or were at their ankles. I thought Slade had a pretty solid game. He made one or two errors (as EVERY 10 makes, even Dan Carter!) but you would think by the way many people talk that he made a mistake every time he touched the ball! People here have mentioned that he is simply shovels the ball on in attack, which is a fair criticism, but any many ways Dan Carter plays the same (especially in recent years). If anyone has watched the way that Carter has played in recent years they would notice that he doesn't actually create that much - with the likes of SBW, Nonu, Smith etc directly outside you don't really have to. The strength of Carters game on attack was the way he reads the game, and his low error rate - he does attack the line at times with the ball in hand, but he didn't do this that often (much like Slade). Weepu and Cruden play a very different style - they take the ball to the line more and probably create more indecision in the oppositions backline. Personally I didn't think Weepu looked any better at 10 than Slade - he certainly put the defenders in two minds, but his passing was a bit reckless at times. The problem I have with him is that he (like Cruden/Quade Cooper) always look to run with the ball before passing; this can be good to create space, but if their is already space outside simply 'shoveling on' the ball can be the best option. Something that many people don't take into account is defense, which is an area the Slade excels. I worry a bit about Weepu defense at 10 - he is fine if the players run straight at him, but his lateral defense is a bit suspect. Cruden is a courageous defender, but his lack of size is an issue, and it was very noticeable how narrow the AB's defensive line was last season with Cruden at 10 (Nonu stood much closer to Cruden on defense that he does for Carter/Slade). Personally I would start Weepu at 9 and Slade at 10 versus Argentina (with Weepu obviously doing the goal-kicking), with Cowan and Cruden on the bench, though I wouldn't be against Weepu starting at 10 with Slade on the bench.

SBW played well again - I think he's secured himself a spot on the bench versus Argentina. Muliaina was solid at fullback, and it was great to see Guildford have storming game on the wing. I expected Guildford to have a strong game, as he's been in great form all season (barring a few pressure games). Having genuine pace on the wing is a huge asset, but I suspect that is the last we will see of him this RWC, with Kahui and Jane likely to be back starting next week.

You sure he doesn't create much? He may not create much to you, but he certainly directs his players better than anyone at the moment.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

If you're trying to imply Slade is as good as DC as a goal kicker, I'm going to have to stop you right there.

no, im actually saying that DC ain't perfect and on current kicking form we are not loosing as much as some people would have you think, IF what i saw was accuarate

I am NOT trying to say slade is anywhere near DC...he's not...but he is also not as bad as he is being made out.

Judge Slade on the truth and not some exageration of DC never misses (he has had several shockers in the kicking department) and slade misses everything

You sure he doesn't create much? He may not create much to you, but he certainly directs his players better than anyone at the moment.

I dont think anyone in their right mind would suggest DC isn't the best, I dont think there is any point in making him out to be some sort of perfect player as no will be able to match the expectations

We need to be realistic and STOP comparing everyone to DC

 

[Darwin]

You sure he doesn't create much? He may not create much to you, but he certainly directs his players better than anyone at the moment.

Carter directs play superbly, but he generally doesn't take the ball to line and create gaps ala Cruden/Weepu. This isn't a criticism of his play at all, but rather a statement on the style of rugby he plays. I feel first-fives fall into two catergories: those whose first instinct is to create everytime they get the ball in hand (e.g. Cruden/Quade Cooper/Weepu) and those whose first instinct is to distribute (Carter/Slade/Tony Brown). Obviously players don't always fit completely into one of other category, and indeed the best players often mix up the way they play. Carter is capable of taking the ball to the line and creating, but he doesn't do this everytime he gets the ball like Cruden or Weepu do (indeed they strength of his game is he chooses the right time when to attack the line).