Road to Lions 2017

[psychic duck]

Because dropping one player, at 13, doesn't cause the difference between a team that loses against Australia and a team that thrashes Australia. There was an overall improvement throughout the entire team, going from the second test (where the team played extremely bad) to the third.

Also, England have 2 wins and 0 losses single-handedly against Australia since the Lions tour. Ireland are 1-1. Australia haven't been a particularly tough side for a long time. They have a pack that can be pushed around by the right team. The collective might of four improving home nations should easily put away Australia.

I think Gatland held back the Lions, and I think Gatland holds back Wales. Gatland has one or two big games a year and everyone seems to forget how, most of the time, his teams are full of talent and are completely underwhelming.

This isn't meant as a dig. I say exactly the same thing about Lancaster.

Schmidt is the only Home Nation head coach that I really rate and should be the next Lions coach. (Rob Baxter would be my second choice.)

Gatland is a good coach and his trophy cabinet over his career would reflect that. However having said that, he has a formulaic gameplan which has been found out, doesn't adapt and evolve to changes, and probably at a time where it's best for Wales to go in a fresh direction now. Gatland's tactics were hugely reliant on a scrum dominance that is no longer there, both his major games in 2013 vs England and Australia coincided with the opposition being pinged off the park. Gatland could still be a decent coach for a Top 14 side perhaps, but it's time to move on at international level.

 

[j'nuh]

I think I'd vastly prefer a club coach, but where's the guy with the record saying "I could lead the Lions?" The only person I see getting close to that in the next year is Mallinder, at a stretch.

As I said, Rob Baxter would be awesome.

You look through the Exeter squad on wikipedia and then look at the squads of the other top four teams, and it's outstanding how Chiefs manage to be at that end of the table. He takes players abandoned by other clubs (e.g. Lewis and Waldrom) and makes them into important parts of the team. He's managed to turn several young players into players that are on the England fringes (Slade, Nowell, Hill and LCD are all only 21!). He's still using players that brought them up from the Championship back in 2009/10 as regular starters! (Guys like Steenson, Johnson, H. Thomas, Dollman.)

If he can get as much out of the Lions players as he can out of the Exeter players, then I think the Lions would have a very good shot at beating the All Blacks. Just a question of whether the same methods he uses would work at international level. (I have no idea here.)

 

[Saint2014]

1) Corbs
2) Hartley
3) Cole
4) Lawes
5) AWJ
6) Wood
7) SOB
8) Heaslip
9) Murray
10) Sexton
11) North
12) Burrell
13) Tuilagi
14) Wade
15) 1/2p

 

[Peat]

As I said, Rob Baxter would be awesome.

You look through the Exeter squad on wikipedia and then look at the squads of the other top four teams, and it's outstanding how Chiefs manage to be at that end of the table. He takes players abandoned by other clubs (e.g. Lewis and Waldrom) and makes them into important parts of the team. He's managed to turn several young players into players that are on the England fringes (Slade, Nowell, Hill and LCD are all only 21!). He's still using players that brought them up from the Championship back in 2009/10 as regular starters! (Guys like Steenson, Johnson, H. Thomas, Dollman.)

If he can get as much out of the Lions players as he can out of the Exeter players, then I think the Lions would have a very good shot at beating the All Blacks. Just a question of whether the same methods he uses would work at international level. (I have no idea here.)

I bow to no man in my admiration of Baxter - but as you say, it's unknown whether his methods would work at that higher level; its unknown whether they'd even work with a better bunch of club players. Moreover, he has relatively little experience of coaching and winning on those big days, when the pressure is on. Possible forwards coach? Sure. Possible head coach? That's some gamble.

And more over, I can't see him getting anywhere near the level of exposure to big games that he needs anytime soon. Which is a shame, as I want him in contention for the next time the England job comes vacant, and you never know...

Left-field shout - McCall, maybe, if Sarries kill everything in sight leading up the 2016-17 season.

 

[Jbobo]

If he can get as much out of the Lions players as he can out of the Exeter players, then I think the Lions would have a very good shot at beating the All Blacks. Just a question of whether the same methods he uses would work at international level. (I have no idea here.)

It's an interesting idea to go with a coach who is not currently with an international team. I'm not sure of their names, but from the Pro 12 i wonder what the Ulster or Glasgow coaches could do with the talent the lions would provide considering the success, progress and team cohesiveness each team has acquired in recent times. Then again, it also raises the question of whether they would have the experience, and or capability of bringing a group of players together and in a relatively short space of time and then turning them into a strong international outfit, better than a current international coach who's job is to do that already. I guess with Schmidt you would get the best of both worlds in that regard.

 

[goodNumber10]

As I said, Rob Baxter would be awesome.

You look through the Exeter squad on wikipedia and then look at the squads of the other top four teams, and it's outstanding how Chiefs manage to be at that end of the table. He takes players abandoned by other clubs (e.g. Lewis and Waldrom) and makes them into important parts of the team. He's managed to turn several young players into players that are on the England fringes (Slade, Nowell, Hill and LCD are all only 21!). He's still using players that brought them up from the Championship back in 2009/10 as regular starters! (Guys like Steenson, Johnson, H. Thomas, Dollman.)

If he can get as much out of the Lions players as he can out of the Exeter players, then I think the Lions would have a very good shot at beating the All Blacks. Just a question of whether the same methods he uses would work at international level. (I have no idea here.)

it's important to understand that Exeter are where they are because they have taken the time to get where they are, Baxter has not rushed the building of the squad and has developed players... he's basically been allowed to do everything you don't have time to do on a lions tour.

That's not to diminish how good a coach baxter is, but just to put some perspective between the two set ups.

I reckon he could be a superb shout as Forwards coach, i wish Lancaster would involve him in the England set up even if it's just as an analyst.

 

[TheSaffycen]

When Baxter was with England we saw the best attacking play we've had in years.

 

[scar123]

Welsh loosehead Nicky Smith is a potential bolter

 

[welshglory]

My bolters (in today's game)
Samson Lee
Maro Itoje
Kieran Brookes
Jonny Gray
LCD
Elliot Daly
Flanker/8 who plays for leinster/Ireland and who's name escapes me.
Cory Allen

 

[Irishkid]

Conor Gilsenan will be a bolter he is a seriously good young prospect.

 

[big ginger 8]

Flanker/8 who plays for leinster/Ireland and who's name escapes me.

Rhys Ruddock?

Conor Gilsenan will be a bolter he is a seriously good young prospect.

Hopefully you guys give him the gametime he needs. Definitely has the talent.


Got me thinking what would an u25 Lions team look like? Without thinking to indepth about it and ignoring potential I'd probably be looking at:

1. McGrath: ok I should probably pick Marler especially based on recent weeks but when not having to play ridiculous amounts of rugby I probably have Jack ahead of him, plus sentimental value.
2. Duncan Casey: I actually can't think of many hookers who fit the age requirement, I don't know the age of the multitude of English hookers who seem to end up in the squad. Anyway Casey can throw really well and do other stuff good enough to so there he is.
3. Samson Lee: best option here probably, pretty useful in the scrum
4. Launchbury: decent player like
5. Lawes: may as well let berry's mate come along
6. O'Mahony: pashun
7. Tipuric: wears a blue scrum cap
8. Vunipola: balance innit
9. Murray: continues an annoying trend of Munstermen
10. Biggar: yes he is not George Ford or Owen Farrell
11. North: went alright on the last tour
12. Olding: player of the tour, no doubt
13. Tuilagi: there'd be a lot of gaps for him
14. May: to placate j'nuh
15. Hogg: he's Scottish

16. ?
17. Marler: unlucky mate
18. Moore: he gets to wait for a mate on the bench
19. J. Gray: he's Scottish
20. Faletau: yes Welshmen he is there
21. Marmion: dat step
22. Ford: get the smallest 9-10-12 possible late in the game
23. Zebo: Zeeeeeeeeeeeeeeebbbbbooooooooooooooooooooo

And that is my fair and 'hilariously crafted' team.

 

[Shaggy]

From an All Blacks point of view, there will be a number of the front liners either retired or playing off shore post RWC, particularly in the midfield. Nonu will be gone, most likely Conrad Smith too, and who knows what SBW's plans are. Out of the current squad, we are probably looking at Crotty at 12 and Fekitoa at 13, with possibly someone like Seta Tamanivalu coming in if he can make the jump to Super Rugby, and then test Rugby (if he has a good Super Rugby season 2015, he could be in the All Black mix 2016 and onwards)

 

[goodNumber10]

When Baxter was with England we saw the best attacking play we've had in years.

against a depleted Argentina side.... Mike Catt was also in that set up as attack coach.

 

[lynam1104]

I reckon the Lions will be a reason for SBW to stick around before he decides to go be cricketer of whatever is next on the docket.

 

[TheSaffycen]

against a depleted Argentina side.... Mike Catt was also in that set up as attack coach.

Yes but it doesn't change the fact that they seemed to notice opportunities unfolding and the decision making was much better. Players like Eastmond and Twelvetrees really opened up the game (even against a poor side) and i feel that was down too the direction of Baxter and Catt. If we played them with Farrell as the attack coach then I doubt we would have scored as many tries and that they would mostly be through forward dominance and grinding over instead of fast back play.

 

[Peat]

Rhys Ruddock?



Hopefully you guys give him the gametime he needs. Definitely has the talent.


Got me thinking what would an u25 Lions team look like? Without thinking to indepth about it and ignoring potential I'd probably be looking at:

1. McGrath: ok I should probably pick Marler especially based on recent weeks but when not having to play ridiculous amounts of rugby I probably have Jack ahead of him, plus sentimental value.
2. Duncan Casey: I actually can't think of many hookers who fit the age requirement, I don't know the age of the multitude of English hookers who seem to end up in the squad. Anyway Casey can throw really well and do other stuff good enough to so there he is.
3. Samson Lee: best option here probably, pretty useful in the scrum
4. Launchbury: decent player like
5. Lawes: may as well let berry's mate come along
6. O'Mahony: pashun
7. Tipuric: wears a blue scrum cap
8. Vunipola: balance innit
9. Murray: continues an annoying trend of Munstermen
10. Biggar: yes he is not George Ford or Owen Farrell
11. North: went alright on the last tour
12. Olding: player of the tour, no doubt
13. Tuilagi: there'd be a lot of gaps for him
14. May: to placate j'nuh
15. Hogg: he's Scottish

16. ?
17. Marler: unlucky mate
18. Moore: he gets to wait for a mate on the bench
19. J. Gray: he's Scottish
20. Faletau: yes Welshmen he is there
21. Marmion: dat step
22. Ford: get the smallest 9-10-12 possible late in the game
23. Zebo: Zeeeeeeeeeeeeeeebbbbbooooooooooooooooooooo

And that is my fair and 'hilariously crafted' team.

Using the standard definition of age grade in rugby atm would disqualify O'Mahony and McGrath (born in 1989) Ditto quite a few people actually...

Hooker - Rob Herring's born in 1990 and already has international caps; Fraser Brown at Glasgae likewise, but born in 1989, so I wouldn't count him. All the senior England hookers are too old but there's guys like Buchanan and Cowan-Dickie with A-representation.

To do an U-25 team for 2015 (1990 or born later), based solely on weight of international representation...

1. Joe Marler 2. Rob Herring 3. Samson Lee 4. Iain Henderson 5. Joe Launchbury 6. Dave Denton 7. Matt Kvesic 8. Billy Vunipola 9. Rhodri Williams 10. Duncan Weir 11. George North 12. Scott Williams 13. Manu Tuilagi 14. Alex Cuthbert 15. Stuart Hogg 16. Rob Buchanan 17. Mako Vunipola 18. Henry Thomas 19. Jonny Gray 20. Rob Harley 21. Kieran Marmion 22. Paddy Jackson 23. Liam Williams

Interesting exercise. Slightly gutting to have to type Liam Williams' name, I didn't realise the *** was that young.

It's an interesting idea to go with a coach who is not currently with an international team. I'm not sure of their names, but from the Pro 12 i wonder what the Ulster or Glasgow coaches could do with the talent the lions would provide considering the success, progress and team cohesiveness each team has acquired in recent times.

Ulster's coaching staff have come under very heavy criticism in the last two years; I'm not sure I want the guys currently there associated with the province too much longer, nevermind the Lions.

Townsend looks a fine coach in the making. Tandy too. I was to pick one Pro 12 coach to contribute though it would be Foley, who's doing a solid job with Munster and has experience as an international coach.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

Using the standard definition of age grade in rugby atm would disqualify O'Mahony and McGrath (born in 1989) Ditto quite a few people actually...

Hooker - Rob Herring's born in 1990 and already has international caps; Fraser Brown at Glasgae likewise, but born in 1989, so I wouldn't count him. All the senior England hookers are too old but there's guys like Buchanan and Cowan-Dickie with A-representation.

To do an U-25 team for 2015 (1990 or born later), based solely on weight of international representation...

1. Joe Marler 2. Rob Herring 3. Samson Lee 4. Iain Henderson 5. Joe Launchbury 6. Dave Denton 7. Matt Kvesic 8. Billy Vunipola 9. Rhodri Williams 10. Duncan Weir 11. George North 12. Scott Williams 13. Manu Tuilagi 14. Alex Cuthbert 15. Stuart Hogg 16. Rob Buchanan 17. Mako Vunipola 18. Henry Thomas 19. Jonny Gray 20. Rob Harley 21. Kieran Marmion 22. Paddy Jackson 23. Liam Williams

Interesting exercise. Slightly gutting to have to type Liam Williams' name, I didn't realise the *** was that young.



Ulster's coaching staff have come under very heavy criticism in the last two years; I'm not sure I want the guys currently there associated with the province too much longer, nevermind the Lions.

Townsend looks a fine coach in the making. Tandy too. I was to pick one Pro 12 coach to contribute though it would be Foley, who's doing a solid job with Munster and has experience as an international coach.

Swap him with Finn Russell who is better, more consistent and younger. Then you've got one nice team there.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Foley? I think he's average as hell, Townsend blows him out of the water, himself and Pat Lam are the two who impress me the most at the moment.

 

[goodNumber10]

Yes but it doesn't change the fact that they seemed to notice opportunities unfolding and the decision making was much better. Players like Eastmond and Twelvetrees really opened up the game (even against a poor side) and i feel that was down too the direction of Baxter and Catt. If we played them with Farrell as the attack coach then I doubt we would have scored as many tries and that they would mostly be through forward dominance and grinding over instead of fast back play.

perhaps, we played some pretty impressive rugby in the churchill cup that farrell was involved in.

i like baxter, i think he's quality.


But, how about........................................DEAN RYAN as forwards coach?

 

[Feicarsinn]

Schmidt head coach works for me. Although I do have reservations about the fact that he's a notoriously slow starter. You don't have much time in the job to get things right as Lion coach and neither Ireland nor Leinster were stellar for his first couple of games in charge.

2 years out I don't see anyone taking the 10 jersey off Sexton. 9 looks to be Murray's which is nice. The really interesting calls are going to be made in the pack however. Do they go for a punishing front five that could possibly shove New Zealand around in the set piece and try to physically batter them or do they go for a quicker pack that can get to the breakdown sooner and nag the All Blacks all day?