RBS 6 Nations - England vs Ireland - 17/03/2012 - 17:00

[Macsen]

It has not been pretty or entirely convincing but as a start for a fresh team with a fresh coash, it is about as good as you could hope for.

Well Lancaster almost did an '08 Gatland by taking a team that embarrassed itself at the World Cup to a Grand Slam.

 

[gingergenius]

I literally love how wrong I was about the scrums!!!!

Cole destroyed Healy - if you account for last year that was surprising, but considering he out-scrummed everyone this 6N despite Jenkins (and it was really Jones killing Corbisiero that won the battle that day) then I'd say Cole's had as good a six nations as an English tighthead could want to have.

Otherwise, outstanding from Morgan.. I'll save the rest of my judgement since I've been drinking since I woke up and intend to continue until I sleep.. .but yes England, go Lancaster"!

 

[raziel_eire]

I don't typically post much, but feel compelled to following that result this evening...


Hats off to England - they absolutely pilloried us in the 2nd half. Even if Mike Ross had stayed on and the scrums hadn't swayed to 100% dominance in England's favour as they did when Court was introduced, the result would have been the same, just by a narrower scoreline (and would have allowed the Irish setup to continue to paper over the gaping maw that is our scrum/prop outlook for the future).

Couple of points:

1. Morgan was immense for England
2. Tom Court deserves a medal for willingly staying on that pitch for the duration of his time. He could have been seriously injured today such was the dominance of England steamrolling over him. He's nowhere near international tighthead level, saw our international tighthead get beaten & forced off with injury and still went out there to try and do a job - fairplay!
3. Opinion of Tuilagi has dropped considerably with his attempted no-arms-I'll-just-use-my-head-&-shoulders-as-a-torpedo smash tackle attempt towards the end as Ireland tried to break from inside our 22. As Brian Moore called it on the BBC, it was a cheap shot that made no sense considering the position England found themselves in at the time
4. Tom Croft back to Lion's standard, excellent despite the fumble
5. Thought Laurence Dallaglio was a little more level headed then he showed himself today - to class England's performance over the 6nations as his highlight of the Championship and better then Wales' was particularly one-eyed and biased in my opinion
6. Donnacha Ryan, I was wrong. I questioned his involvement ahead of Mike McCarthy for a place in the Ireland World Cup squad, thinking he lacked the mobility and intensity to do a job for us. He has both and he's unequivocally proved to be ahead of DOC in the queue (but does he pip Cullen should DOC actually be put to pasture? for me, yes)
7. Rob Kearney & Stephen Ferris should know better then to be involved in articles where they speak "down" to, condescend or claim superiority over an England team written the week before a Test match. When we start talking ourselves up, or the opposition down, it never turns out well in our favour.

With a little tweaking here and there, this is an England team that is going to be feared by most in the near future and for quite a few years to come. With the old boys attitude gone to be replaced by a hunger and fight in the white shirt, coupled with the experience they gain playing & winning, I can see Ireland and quite a few other top teams getting beaten (perhaps not as soundly as todays margin) by these guys in future Championships.

...which as an Ireland supporter has me worried.

Before today we were only 4 points (3 v Wales and 1 v France) from entering a Grand Slam match of our own - now however, we are rightfully a distant 3rd in the Championship.

We need to pay a top scrum/prop coach from either England (my preferred option), France or NZ to come work in Ireland for the next decade - not just for the senior national side, but to introduce the culture of scrummaging back into our players at junior & under-age levels aswell so we might have some prospects. It's something the guys in the RTE studio touched upon after talking to Ben Kay this evening, for whatever reason or for whoever is to blame down the last number of years, the scrum is not given enough attention as a part of Irish rugby.
Brent Pope & Conor O'Shea also made good points this evening regarding Jamie Hagan, him missing a golden opportunity to test his mettle in some proper scrums playing for Connacht in the Heineken Cup as opposed to filling in at Leinster during Ross' time with the Ireland setup.

Miserable

 

[Feicarsinn]

I said in the podcast that a part of me would like to see us lose this one. I've never been more wrong, I'm absolutely sick about this one.

That said, I think that this result was needed to a certain extent. We've had a poor championship and a win today would have hid that fact. Wins against Italy and Scotland are to a certain extent a give, especially at home, but in every game against a side of comparable strength to our own we've been found wanting. Not even nearly good enough.

I think the Ireland squad (and note that I don't say the team) is in need of wholesale changes. Firstly management, but there are a lot of players on the fringes of the panel who don't deserve to be there and whose places could be given to younger, hungrier guys who will at least inject some new impetus into the squad.

Fair play to England, good performance. Keep Lancaster and you have the making of a very good team. It's been a long time since I've seen an England team I've hated less than this one.

 

[Peat]

Uhm... am I the only guy who thought that was a really dire match, and that its very hard to take anything from it, other than that Rowntree is a fantastic scrum-coach and that Tom Court really is not an international class tighthead?

Sure, its nice to be on the right side of it, but jesus... the amount of unforced errors were absolutely shocking.

 

[irelandfan123]

earlier in the year I said it felt like Kidney had dressed me in a pink dress and f*cked me

Now he physically has -_-

 

[Teh Mite]

Uhm... am I the only guy who thought that was a really dire match, and that its very hard to take anything from it, other than that Rowntree is a fantastic scrum-coach and that Tom Court really is not an international class tighthead?

Sure, its nice to be on the right side of it, but jesus... the amount of unforced errors were absolutely shocking.

It was ******* down a monsoon FFS. That's a horrendously unfair assessment I'd more expect from a Mungoball fan.



As an aside, I see yet again Hartley is given absoloutely no credit for his part in the front 3...

 

[slowprop]

2. Tom Court deserves a medal for willingly staying on that pitch for the duration of his time. He could have been seriously injured today such was the dominance of England steamrolling over him. He's nowhere near international tighthead level, saw our international tighthead get beaten & forced off with injury and still went out there to try and do a job - fairplay!

I agree with this. Ireland showed good sportsmanship. Court could easily have got 'injured' a lot of teams would have taken him off for the slightest thing and if the other prop couldn't come back on we would've had uncontested scrums - which would have been a huge disadvantage to England. I still can't understand why with 7 reserves you can't mandate 2 props. God you could even go to 8 reserves.

I must say I originally thought England would struggle to win any games at all in this 6 Nations. I am pleased I've been proved wrong. Wales deserve their win but I'm left thinking ..'If only' about those last few minutes against them at Twickenham. However we rode our luck in the first to games so I guess it evened itself out over the championship.

I can't see that anyone else could've done a better job with England when you consider the place they were in just a few weeks ago. Surely the RFU have to give Lancaster a chance. Even Mallet seems to agree.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...permanent-basis-by-RFU-says-Nick-Mallett.html

I really hope the RFU have the courage to do the right thing here and reward the guy for the job he's done. Why rock the boat ? You've got a group of players who obviously like playing for Lancaster. Surely bringing in anyone else now risks being counter-productive ?

We've got a chance to use the Summer tour to have a look at some more young players like, Joseph, Burns, May, Trinder, Marler, Mullen etc. give 3 or 4 of them some experience maybe bringing them off the bench like he did with Parling, Morgan and Dickson to start with this year and start to build some real strength in depth for 2015.

 

[Teh Mite]

Is Ferris really that tasty a player? Alleged biting incident somewhere between the 25th and 28th minute.

 

[Teh Mite]

Et tu...?

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<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3sNtcnwe0qA?version=3&hl=en_GB&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="640" height="360" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true">

48 seconds?</object>

 

[Atco]

Having read the comments in The Sunday Times this morning, I must say I find the tone of comment towards England mealy mouthed. Frankly, if we're honest and someone asked if an England supporter would take four wins and a very close loss (against the grand slam winners) at the beginning of the campaign we'd have bitten their arms off.

I know it's been said that we were a bit lucky and that the opposition often played badly against us but it is a truism in all competitive team sport that you can only play as well as you are allowed to play. Good teams are usually 'lucky' teams and know how to win badly. It's all about pace and pressure.

So, fantastic England. Thank you for making me feel good about the National team, again.

As to the coaching appointments, I'll leave that to wiser heads than mine. Certainly hope Rowntree's involved. He's worked wonders with our pack and particularly the front row. By 2015 they could be a feared unit.

Hats off to Lancaster and the team.

 

[djames6]

I was a bit disappointed with Morgan's post match interview. His first comment should have been thank you Nigel Davies and his team for giving me the opportunity and for getting me into reasonable shape. There is little doubt that if he had stayed in Gloucestershire he would still be playing for Cinderford or equivalent.

 

[Big Ewis]

I know it's been said that we were a bit lucky and that the opposition often played badly against us but it is a truism in all competitive team sport that you can only play as well as you are allowed to play. Good teams are usually 'lucky' teams and know how to win badly. It's all about pace and pressure.

Hats off to Lancaster and the team.

Hey England played great given their roster and time together, but that's a great point in sports you make. Sometimes all it takes is one little mistake from a team, and the opponents can get cunning and opportunistic and the whole momentum shifts sides and then it's too late (even in 80min) to really turn the tables again.
It's not necessarily that a team dominated the other, or that is flat out better. Certain final scores just don't tell the story accurately at all.

Ireland should have won that game during Day 1 at home versus Wales and all it took is two terrible mistakes in the last few minutes, and that same Irish team got thrashed by England which itself almost saw itself losing to Italy (which got destroyed 42-10 by the Irish)...so obviously there are no absolutes, especially in rugby...it's a matter of momentum/psychology and rhythm (along with skill and chemistry, obviously...)

 

[Saintjay]

I was a bit disappointed with Morgan's post match interview. His first comment should have been thank you Nigel Davies and his team for giving me the opportunity and for getting me into reasonable shape. There is little doubt that if he had stayed in Gloucestershire he would still be playing for Cinderford or equivalent.

Not sure I agree. The only person who has the drive, talent and motivation to get where he has is Ben Morgan. He alone has to put in the hard work to be at the top level. Good coaching helps a little but if you have not got talent it does not matter how good your coaches are. A guy with his talent would have been scouted and picked up by somebody, it would have been for his own reasons to go with Scarlets the same as it was to go with England.

 

[welshglory]

I was a bit disappointed with Morgan's post match interview. His first comment should have been thank you Nigel Davies and his team for giving me the opportunity and for getting me into reasonable shape. There is little doubt that if he had stayed in Gloucestershire he would still be playing for Cinderford or equivalent.

Really? He's already thanked Davies and the Scarlets so much. Get on with your life mun

 

[lucky number 7]

**** everything !!


What a horrendous performance ruined my paddies day.

Well played England they were a class ahead of us on the day...

 

[Feicarsinn]

Et tu...?

<object width="640" height="360">


<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3sNtcnwe0qA?version=3&hl=en_GB&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="640" height="360" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true">


48 seconds?</object>

I can't say I saw anything there. Still, it seems like an odd thing to make up. The citing period is two days right? I guess we'll find out soon enough if anything's to come of it.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Looks to me that Ferris cleared someone out with his arm over their face, and then you can see him signalling after that.
Could be a bite, could have been that the person had their mouth open and Ferris shoved his arm in it.
Can't really see anything from the TV angles though.

 

[gingergenius]

Now I'm a tad more sober...

I don't think there's that much to take from that match for England, considering it was the front 3, 8man and goalkicker that did all the work.

Evidently, we've done far better than we should have done - I thought 3 wins out of 5 would be a good return, and we've got 4 (and deserved a draw from the defeat). In doing so, we've established that we have a quality front row that will only improve. We've found a replacement for Palmer and competition for Lawes. We've found an 8. We've found a good leader, and we've started to see Croft close to his best. We've found another useful 9, we've found competition for Flood at 10 and we've found a workhorse in the centre. All in all, it's very positive. Now we really need to send a strong team down to South Africa and see what we can do with better weather and against a more physical team.

Ireland are the guys who really need to take a long, hard look at this game. If Ireland ever want to be as good as Munster/ Leinster suggest they can be, they need to seriously work out their front row situation. I'm not talking about Healy and Ross, because besides this match they've been able to hold the scrum up for the past year.

But scrummaging has long been a major issue for Ireland - Healy/ Horan and Hayes were pushed around for fun and it was only through crap refereeing that sides like Argentina and Italy didn't make more from it. And the Healy-Best-Ross axis papers over the cracks in Irish rugby, because while they're not great, the backup is abysmal. I've been saying for a while, an injury to one of those two props and Ireland are up **** creek without a paddle - both Wales and England can call on reasonable backup, but Ireland really can't - I've always thought it laughable that the 3rd best prop in Ireland was Australian.

And if you look at the Irish provinces, you might work out why. Leinster have Healy and Ross (who was developed in England). Ulster have Court (haha) and Afoa (a Kiwi). Munster have du Preez and Botha (both Saffas), plus Varley and Horan (both crap). And Connacht... well. I can see exactly why the IRFU doesn't want so many foreign players. Poor old Kidney's got no Irish options to choose from!!! Someone said before Ireland need to hire a scrum guru to sort this out, and yes they do. But in the short term, I'd suggest Ireland send some young props to the Premiership (like happened with Ross) so they can learn their trade properly - look what's happened with Rhys Gill, Tonga'uiha, Mujati etc. who all came to the Prem with no reputation and are now very good scrummagers.

 

[big ginger 8]

Irish props in the provinces squads:

Leinster: Healy, Ross, Jack McGrath (can play both sides but stronger at loosehead), Jamie Hagan (needs more H Cup time to see if he's a viable option could be good enough) Academy: Tadhg Furlong (looks decent though not the strongest scrummager) Martin Moore, Jack O'Connell and James Tracey (haven't seen enough of them) In school: Ed Byrne looks very good at this level

Munster: Horan, Stephen Archer (from what I've seen can't scrummage to save his life), Darragh Hurley (will never be an international), John Ryan, Alan Cotter, James Cronin and David Kilcoyne (haven't seen enough)

Ulster: Court, Paddy McCallister (doesn't look half bad IMO) Jerry Cronin, Callum Black, Declan Fitzpatrick, Adam Macklin, (some I haven't seen enough of others just don't look to be that good prospects

Connacht: Brett Wilkinson (ok), Ronan Loughney (poor), Stewart Maguire (worse version of Buckley from what I've seen and heard), Denis Buckley (never seen before)